Faster Recovery on GF Grab
LP Palm is Hard Knock Down
All Palms Juggle Property, so any palm FADC > Tatsu works
cr. lk, st. mp, and cr. mp + 6 on hit
EX Kongo and reversal kongo immune to armor break
That sounds damn good… would that break him
Wiffed Flip Grab is fine. A landed flip grab needs to recover faster to enable some safe followup.
Palm doesn’t need a hard knockdown or juggle, it needs full projectile invincibility from start to finish.
I think 1 more frame on cr.lp would be good
reversal kongo needs armor break immunity, yes.
cr.mk should force standing
tatsu needs the most work, it’s a near-unusable move without ex.
- get rid of mk tatsu, it’s a compromise that doesn’t work.
- give hk tatsu the startup of mk tatsu
- move lk tatsu to to mk
- make the new lk tatsu just the first hit, doesn’t go into the air, just for juggling
- make all of them vacuum on the first hit.
- hard knockdown for mk and hk tatsu
- throw invincible at startup for lk and mk
- hits all crouchers at pointblank
Now it’s a usable move.
I actually like the Tatsu’s but I’m a rarity in many things. I actually used MK for a LOT of stuff untill they made backthrow scale 
It’s also the easier Tatsu to use for Trade to Ultra/HK Tatsu usually.
I like the Idea of the LK Tatsu doing only the raise, can leave out the Vacuum on MK and HK in that case(though I ofcourse would love it)
No Vacuum but Hard knockdown on the last hit might be a fun compromise.
No Throw invinicibilty and crouch hitting to be honest(ofcours it would improve it just seems like an unreasonable change)
Give EX a low hit at start up maybe, startup shows off close LK type animation that then swirls into the high hit and the low hit is FADCable. Have the low hit hiton the 3rd or 4th frame maybe. Actually far lk animation would probably flow better.
I don’t agree with faster recovery on whiffed DF grab instead increase that of parry on hit or whiff. Make it df palm type recovery. That is something I’d like to see and would find appropiate.
Hard knockdown on any palm seems overboard(Just to make clear all of these ideas would of course improve Gouken, I just say what I think is going too far balance is still a thing)
Same issue with Palms juggle count alteration.
The kongo immunity to armour break thing is weird and overboard, letting extatsu hit low would be enough of a buff to Gouken to allow him safety for 3 bars.
c.short, far strong(I assume you meant that one, otherwise kudos if you want close strong nerfed as compensation :3) and crouchstrong +6 on hit is crazy. far strong at +5 is already fine, a one framer never hurt anyone and if you want the sweep do it after close strong. (Though eh capcom, MP MP Sweep wopuld be a combo I wouldnt mind just saying :3) I understand wanting c.LK to combo into hadou, but we dont get combos after jab chain one of the design choices to allow us ridiculous damage. I was already happy they gave us cl.MP combos, this might be a bit much. crouch strong doing it is a lot more reasonable still seems too much too me.
Some other things I would add(pure fantasy, only point 1 is essential), as I always do:
- Gouken kongo glitch, no more
:f: as a shortcut please. - Oni style command normals, MK and HK would be preferred, but I could see uses for others as well.
- Make Palms true vertical DPs like their inspiration(forgot where capcom mentioned that though) : - Faster Startup Movement(9f dp?, whut?) lets have that shin gouken speed(though eh lose his armour, that would be too ridiculous) -full invincibility till active for MP+EX version. WIth stuff like that make the recovery intense -3 to -6 is too safe for that stuff, lets see -15 or much worse would probably be more apropiate, have Gouken smoke a pipe or something after he styled on folks.
- Does EX palm still whiff that 2nd hit in certain situations? Ive been so conditioned to stop doing it I never check. Fix that please if none of 3 is done.
- Air Tatsus reduced recovery and lower leg immune to projectiles. Lets show where Ken and Ryu picked up that trick.
- Give Shin Sho the Kinjite treatment, reduce that startup. While Kinjites 3f startup would be ridiculous 8f would already be great that way it doesn’t look worse than Mettsu SRK and we need close MP to counterhit before we can combo. And give it a beter AA hitbox while we are at it :3 (6f startup would be my dream startup though). This would also allow us Airs corner OS Ultra, so far my tests have been able to get shinsho to do it If I’m wrong about that I’d love to hear
- Buff far MK Hitbox or startup, just something that would be fun. Both would be silly.
I think I covered all my 2012 wishlist stuff there :3
Heres hoping AE 2013 does more than just sytem changes like they said itd be fun if the tweaked characters a little and fixed odd stuff like the shortcut glitch, but I wouldnt get my hopes up they will
If lp palm was hard knock down, we’d have another vortex tool, as well as having a better recovery on GF Grab.
When I’m playing people, one of the things that make me say damn. is When I lp palm some one and they are let out of my pressure. Same with GF Grab… I have set ups after that, but they are more so creative b/c you can’t safe jump them any more.
Juggling the palm… I’d take it… it’s not a must.
Gouken really doesn’t have any low combos. So if they gave him cr. mp +6 on hit, and it combos with hado and I’d be good.
Tatsu should definitely have a bigger reward considering what it gives up if it’s whiffed or blocked. MAKE IT LIKE A SRK!!! IT’S GOUKEN FOR CHRIST SAKES.
OR Maybe give him an ability like angry scar that gives Tatsu or Palm SRK like properties, at the cost of 1 EX Bar. I think that would be pretty sick. He should glow like Evil Ryu and Oni when it’s active, but with his electricity instead. and OH YEAH… Back Throw Wouldn’t Damage Scale.
low kongo back to kick…
fadc>kongo, or kongo>fadc>palm midscreen as IAM mentions.
charged fbs hurt more and give fractionally longer hit and or blockstun
angled fbs juggle a bit longer
tatsu>fadc>palm midscreen
fb cancel while charging for baits
gflip>dive kick>parry
command dive kick>parry for baits as well
invisibility - with reduced walkspeed w/ shadow still visible(for the haters)
fadc out of u1 u2 and super , costs 2bars?
also on wish list >
DONT TOUCH GFLIP AT ALL!!! fuckers!
Lets see…MY gouken would have:
*Ex-senku would travel the same speed as Dudley’s ex mgb or makoto’s ex dash punch
*high and low kongo zones
*vanilla demon flip
*instant recovery on whiffed demon grab or demon focus like gouki’s demon palm bullshit
*walk speed of gouki
*U2 goes THROUGH single hitting projectiles OR if opponent hits gouken during denjin charge, they get electricuted and denjin releases or denjin just releases and no electricution from denjin charge.
*CL.ST.LP<CL.ST.MK connects like CL.ST.MP<CL.ST.LP
REALISTIC: (a few of these are no brainers and a few more would just help Gouken find the spotlight)
fix the standing kongo glitch
faster charged fb
fix ground tatsu…I’m not going to rewrite all the good stuff up there…just fix the fucking thing already. I hate having to think to myself that I just lost the round if I accidentally pull a tatsu, whiff one completely, or if it DROPS somebody. The reward for the move is no where close to the risk. It’s completely dumb.
less/no recovery on air tatsu
improved back dash already…he’s a zoner at his core
3 frame jab…doesn’t need to link to anything
cr.mp combos to SOMETHING…jeez
st.mk is two hits and hits lower
if my hard fought for cr.hp hits…my follow up palm/ex palm ALWAYS FUCKING HITS
4 hit denjin does more damage and in turn, the max damage for 8 hits is decreased.
dj.mp works in all aspects the same way but hits only once for 80 damage and juggle
Dear SF4 developer(s): You gave me a command dive kick for what reason? Am I trying to brush a fly off my opponent’s shirt? Make it matter. More stun, more priority, more crossup, more uses. It gets me punished far more than it does anything good for me.
PIE IN THE SKY: (Mayyyybe 1 option could be added and still be fair. All or most of these together will break Gouken but would be fun for a day)
charged fireballs can be cranked to move faster like mini Denjins
whole body kongo, no ex needed lol. ex kongo then becomes anti armor break…fuck you adon
anti throw kongo, beats command grabs…Gouken laughs and knees the opponent in the gut and drops them to the ground
armored ex palm
flip sweep is special cancellable
faster focus attack lvl 2 with better frame advantage
flip grab has bigger hitbox so it is easier to land, throws opponent to the corner…knees opponent to the face, Gouken lands and punches/kicks opponent across the room as they fall from the knee to the face
3 frame startup lp palm with invincibility frames…launches opponent UP and causes juggle properties
double ultra…both U1 and U2 have one alternate option similar to Gen. The alternate should be a kongoshin ultra similar to Cammy or Fei but more dramatic (like he slaps the opponent’s hand/foot away, waves his finger in his face saying “It’s no use”, and then pisses on their shoes and chokes them with his hair all while laughing…or something like that lol). Does grey damage to ALL of the opponent’s life bar, whatever is left. Gouken is the kongo master, where is his counter ultra?!
Faster 2 shot fireball charge is all Gouken need. It should charge faster then Oni’s. It is kinda ridulous that it charge slower considers that Oni’s does more clip damage and Oni have a no change 3 hit fireball already.
Gouken should be the fireball war king, it is ridulcous that his ultra fireball lose to everyone’s (ryu, evil ryu and Sagat) and his normal fireball lose to everyone cause all of them have 2 hit EX fireball.
Nah… leave the 2 hits… people would be trying to GF Parry everything in the mirror… the 2 hit dj. mp keeps other Gouken’s in line when they try that flip bs… especially EX Flip.
It would be great to juggle on either hit though, not just the first one.
CR.LP chain CR.LP 1frame link CR.LP cancel LSENKU or LTATSU
=> Super or Corner Ultra after wards would not do much damage anyway
Best way would be to make CR.LP 3FR start up
improve TATSU landing recovery and make em lock on first hit; reference Oni’ SRKs
=> still highly punishable on block and whiff, slightly decrease DMG as offset
improve F.MK as poke, reference Oni
=> two hit, close and far is the same, close hitting croucher, second far hit improved AA hitbox (less trades), fair damage distribution between hits
improve EX HADO; reference Juri
=> immediate double hit, angle depending on pressed buttons, decrease DMG down to 100 as offset
improve KONGO
LP = Feint, reference Yun fake palm
MP = low counter, hitting all crouching moves, slightly decrease DMG as offset
HP = higher counter, ~ standing moves & anti air, slightly decrease DMG as offset
EX = full body counter, throw invincible, but not armor break immune (otherwise Gouken will be a mash fest char), decrease DMG a bit and make the EX version non FADC-able as balance
improve flip parry recovery
=> similar to Akuma Palm, the flight arc is anyway slower than Akumas
improve backdash distance
=> he’s a zoner (see above), slightly increase frames as offset
after anti air J.MP 2hit allow LSENKU to connect
slightly increase LSENKU hit box and slightly decrease pushback CR.LK
=> CR.LK cancelled in LSENKU as better poking tool, decrease DMG of CR.LK to 30 as offset
Improve HADO charge speed; reference ONI
improve DENJIN start up slightly by 1 or 2 frames
Higher launch after anti air EXTATSU FADC for backdash in Ultra2 link for 3EX, reference all SRK chars
improve start up of F.LK by 1 frame
=> personal reference
slightly improve recovery or hit/block stun of CR.MK
=> does not need to combo with HADO, but improve OS cr.tech set ups
Nerfs:
disable backthrow in ULTRAs and slightly decrease overall DMG output for these buffs
just my opinion and unrealistic dreams
Just some thoughts on these ideas:
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I can see Gouken getting maybe 3f jabs, but I think we would have to sacrifice and have them be +2 in response. We have MK as our main 3f move. Goukn having combo ability of jabs can just be too scary and would likely result in specials receiving serious damage nerfs. They already gave us combo ability and a special bonus in being able to link super after any chain(unless c.LK was done). I’d almost rather see c.LK and s.LP become 4f’s allround and more Goukeny then suddenly having jab links.
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Lock I am generally for, being punished for hitting that AA is a pain :(, recovery is fine for the nature of the move, oni srk would make them as punishable as they are now(except vs other goukens or E Ryu)
3.Too bipson, though I would love this vs Focus, I’d rather they focus(pun intended) on our main anti focus tool then this. Slight tweaking of the hitbox would be nice, I hate whiffing vs Guiles that press no button yet my foot is in his model.
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I like this idea though it got me thinking. LP+MP=One straight 2hit hadou, LP+HP=Performs as current EX Hadou, MP+HP= 2 angled Fireballs for more room on corner juggles or AA air coverage(might be ridiculous vs large boys like Honda in the corner). Give ex faster startup or maybe make EX charge time like Oni’s(LP+MP no charge time or oni charge time to get a 3 hit?).
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like this too, but though can’t help it, all our counters and EX ARE throw(actually they have full) invincible. Just you know, only on that first frame before going active(as most moves and throws have 2 active frames whiffs rarely happen). I definitely agree and not having moves be immune to armour break. Just hope he shows up nin sfxt or something where there is no armour break(juri counters are crazy there <3)
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Covered that, so very MUCH agree on that.
7.I think this could be way too crazy for the old man. I’d sooner expect fewer frames on the dash than more distance.
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We can already j.HK or nj.HP after it. Some angles make it harder, but I think those options and the ability to cancel to Tatsu are plenty.
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Might be too good vs focus. Remember we can’t have him be awesome at everything, he might get banned :3
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I can’t agree with that, Oni has it for a reason, his hadou is much worse than ours and can’t even fullscreen. he has the quick charge which makes it even safer whereas we still can rely on our quick recovery after release. Like in 4, I could see EX having that property, it’s the kind of thing EX moves have. Kind of also directed at ID01.
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I feel like Denjin is exactly what it needs to be in all the good and bad ways. Shinsho needs some buffing(I covered it in my wishlist, hi santa are you listening :D) as Denjin outclasses it way too much. There are matches I prefer shinsho, but I notice I would be better off with Denjin still
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Just trade tatsu ultra instead, saves you 3 bars and launches them perfectly :3 I could see this being a thing but that might make the lock work weird, not sure how that might mesh.
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Deleted or counting error? O wait superstitiousness :3
14.Covered my opinion on that in 1.
- Is fine as is lord knows its a nightmare for rufus players as is. Mostly just cause I don’t feel this is really needed, it’d just be icing on a cake.
Scaling allready fixed backthrows into ultras and another overall damage nerf makes him less Gouken(I try to rather think of things that make Gouken more balanced so no nerf is needed or stuff like my palm suggestion, faster, but far more punishable.)
Ofcourse this is all from my viewpoint of Gouken, lord knows every character has different types of players. ANything I say is very focused on my interpretation of the big G. I love this guy 
I’m not sure I can agree with that. Oni’s non-charge fireball, indeed, does not go ful screen but his charged one does. And he have a single hit one with relatively fast charge time that goes full screen. He still win fireball war easily.
The point is. Oni have three options (charged normal, electricity fireball, and ex fireball) if they want more hit. Gouken have effectively zero option on that count given the charged normal take unreasonably long amount of time it is literally not a threat. If it is far, just wait cause it take forever to come out. It close, just walks forward and FADC and sweep for a clean punish or at worst a trade, Gouken will never have enough time to charge it to two hit to beat the FADC or get advantage on the sweep punish.
Still not so simple though, the fireballs differ in a lot of ways and I wouldn’t give up any of Goukens regular fireball attributes to reduce the charge time to Oni’s(except if they buff its startup, but even a one frame increase gives us a corner infinite so I don’t think they’ll do that anytime soon :3)
Oni Hadou vs The Big G:
Startup: 13f vs 17f (only area besides charging his stands out, he startups same as Ryu)
Recovery: 47f vs 41f Goukens best Attribute(Ryu is 45f, Ken has same as Oni for reference)
On Block: -8 vs +2 A significant difference and it means Oni needs to be careful how far he cancels into it(Ryu and Ken are -6 and -7)
On Hit: -4 vs +6 This is where Goukens quick recovery really pays off, but we all know it’s combo potential. Heck before cl.MP buff it was our best combo tool :3
Charged Startup: 45f vs 68f These 2(startup and recovery) are where Oni wins, but remember he needs these to get fullscreen and him releasing his hadou on reaction to an opponent doing something has longer recovery and there is NO chance it can be angeld up so opponents KNOW they can jump it.
Charged Recovery: 77f vs 93f
Charged on Block: +2 vs +9 Oni gets to our fireball stats only when he is fully charged, ours fully charged gets ridiculous numbers.
Charged on Hit: +6 vs +13
As for his multihitter that goes fullscreen, it is really slow in a lot of ways, it’s very useful in a fireball war, but Gouken has a different approach to fireball wars as is.(3 hit version has 30f startup and 69f recovery and -1 on block, even the one hit has 54f recovery please flip and/or palm him)
Gouken getting that fast charge alongside his fast recovery would be an incredible buff(and nightmarish for some matchups like Honda, he struggles enough as is). I must admit it would be fantastic on long distance knockdown pressure and many other ways. Instead changing EX entirely to a 2hit fireball or the variation I mentioned before would be a better more balanced buff, this has some dangerous possibilities.
I think if its broke dont fix…
In contrast I want to say…HE may not have the best overall fb in the game but…
I dont think were supposed to depend on fbs , his design makes it impossible to do so…we do however need a fakey fb , or something added to the fb properties itself as it travels thru the air…
Let me take this opportunity to plug walking or kara slide fb’s…
I can cross the screen almost 2/3 with about 4 of any type…a moving Gouken with fb’s after hard knock is weird for people and keeps em locked down for a bit longer than youd think…changes attack angle basically by jumping the arc forward …this also means recovering closer to you opponent if they should jump say… a lp kara slide fb, and youre also deeper into their jump arc this, now increases your chance of a beneficial reversal or cr aa reversal as you are now underneath them or closer to the prime meridian.,…
Soon you may be throwin em much to your hearts elation, give em a shot…
What he may lack in priority in the fb game he gains in the mobile chucking dept…
I love me some him…
[media=youtube]Zk-kUANYVzs[/media]
break gouken.
[S]Me , Sun and Black Massa Since Vanilla^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^…[/S]
SRK GOUKEN FORUMS SINCE 09…
BALEEEEEEEEDATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!
BOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!
BRPUKEN!!!
But outside of Jump In into MK true blockstring, MK x HADO pressure (e.g. corner) and some char specific quick punishes there is not much application for the this 3fr normal. The activiation range is just to short (not the range of the move itself). 3fr jabs for hit confirming is another story
CR.LP - CR.LP - CR.LP x LSENKU => DMG 119 STUN 245 (current values)
with Super DMG 275 STUN 245 (first hit of Super does not hit due to juggle)
with ULTRA2 in corner DMG 269 STUN 445
… does not sound tremendously over powered compared to other chars and an one frame link between CR.LP.
… of course there should not be a hitconfirm from jabs into EXSENKU outside of st.MP
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Lock for TATSUs. At least the LK version should lock for AA purposes. MK and HK are anyway just combo enders, so maybe not needed. EX SENKU - DASH - HTATSU would as well remain char specific but can be replaced by EXTATSU for universal usage. The recovery on TATSU is almost more cosmetic as the floating and landing animation just looks stupid. Shorting the landing frames (on ground not floating) from 26 to 10 would still mean the move is highly punishable on block and whiff, just timing is a bit tighter.
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Far.MK double hit. I meant merging the close MK and far MK to one move similar to ONIs. So that both hits connect the opp needs to be quite close. Charging a focus in that range would be suicide anyway because of LSENKU, EXTATSU or just jab mash. But it would help in some ground game situation, e.g. dash in stopper, etc. Several chars have 2 hit medium and hard normals like that, Juri, Oni, etc. Not overpowered for them…
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your hybrid version sound fine as well.
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does not need to be Chun backdash distance, just a bit more range to for defensive and positioning purposes. Does not need to be a ground breaking buff, just a bit.
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Somehow true, no real prioirity. I just hate to miss the J.HK follow up and still getting anti aired with quickstand SRK reversal.
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I am unsure if this would really be to good. Again, I do not mean a ground breaking buff, just a slight improve to bring it a bit nearer to something like CR.MK x HADO (with less DMG than shotos) application, without the range of the HADO of course. So just a slight range improvement to the current version and it would be really fine. Maybe also decrease chip damage for that. Vs. focus it would be better to anyway make a raw LSENKU in terms of start up.
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Yes, the same HADO charge speed as Oni maybe a bit too good. Still something can be done.
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Yes, Denjin is almost perfect, no doubt. I just though of some Senku FADC combos …
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trade ultras are stupid game design imo. Would prefer the clean EXTATSU FADC version.
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lost in translation…
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depends, for safe jump set ups it would be usefull. Again, should not be a ground breaking buff, but maybe decrease CR.MK on block from -5 to -3 or something and ± 0 on hit. The gap between OS tech CR.MK cancelled in HADO is a bit to big, but also does not need to combo.
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It’s fair enough, just jab jab tatsu fadc ultra is another option that opens here, steals attention away from MP which for gouken and his damage should really have to decide between jabs or mp pressure. I just don’t see this as a priority for Gouken and just bringing him more in line with other characters, not his main flaw for me.
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Just not needed of the things that could really use fixing, punishable is punishable, it’s only a problem with falling out of and I do agree on universal locking, but other characters have stuff like that too. Not that important.
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Just cause another character has a tool doesn’t mean Gouken should have, those two do not have the huge amount of options Gouken has(even though almost all his options suffer from being slow than needed syndrome)
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I previously considerd whole heartedly elimanting the double fire ball and it just being 2 hits in a direction full juri style as well, but the hybrid seemed more flavourful.
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It would be great for Gouken, but I still think this is one of the needed flaws, Goukens forward dash movement especially with Kara focus dash can accerelate like crazy. That said I would love to actually be able to backdash out of focus attacks like all these other characters can do. Just saying this is a flaw I feel should remain, but would never mind it disappearing, buffs all round you say :3
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Just doesn’t feel as an essential thing for Gouken for me. Just have all Senkus faster and more punishable would do a lot imho.
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Just saying a risky buff to one of Goukens best moves already. Not as essential to allround gameplay, would be this OR the ex 2hit buff, definitely not both.
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Denjin is pretty much perfect, I find it hard enough to ever switch to shinsho, which is still one of my favourite ultras
Buff Shinsho instead, give us a reason to choose! -
While stupid I can really reccomend being ready for them, Trade Tatsu to HK Tatsu is great damage and makes any trade worth it. Not to mention Trade to Ultra :3
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I love Bill Murray <3
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Just once again it’s a nice tweak, but not what I feel is a problem for Gouken or his design.
Make jab palm actually safe and useful. cr mk to 3 fr plz.
Make kongo not shit plz.
The end.