Playable Shin Gouken?? Or something not so broke??
Playable shin gouken means everyone in the world switches to him or he gets banned. Does remind me to send ono a suggestion for a special vs mode where all the special boss characters can fight each other, maybe add AE Yun and Yang for giggles too :3.
I think they should make him Seth/Akuma like and tone down some of the silliness 
Or they could just make the original Gouken a true boss, by making him Shin Gouken “ish”.
I was looking online today, and saw Ono trolling about re-tuning AE again.
If they retune, I hope the keep all the ambigs… but the unblockables??? It seems that everybody has a way to do it.
(edit) P.S. [media=youtube]KYweRkQ-zfw[/media]
Seemingly the recent rumors and Ono’s twitter message hint to a small possibility for AE 2013 … ??? Not only system changes but also balancing?
If I remember correctly some of the requested changes here on SRK were indeed considered for AE 2012, like the change to the MP & HP rush punch.
Maybe a structured collection of small, realistic and careful (!) buffs (incl. explained improvement) for Gouken could prove beneficial in the long run?
Small list:
- Change the entry in Gouken/Fei’s reverse DP second input that says “Any Down, Any Forward” to “Any Down”.
- Make all regular Tatsus lock OR reduce startup.
- Halve (or reduce even more) the recovery on EX(or all, would be pretty nice) Air Tatsu, make lower body of all air tatsus invulnerable to projectiles like other air moves.
- Far MK 5f startup OR Improved hit/hurtbox (Okay this is just a personal thing and not really needed, especially if either of 2 happens :3)
- Improve palms startup and speed and less safe OR increase safety
I feel these 4 changes(like I said, one isn’t needed) would be enough to balance Gouken out and just make him function better, despite all the other stuff I’d love to see to make him better. Heck the air tatsu part could go as well, even though I know I’d really like to see it mesh more(same reason our DF was brought in line with akumas, removal of overhead, reduced grab recovery) with established rules of (air) Tatsus. Other stuff I’d love to see is well documented.
So I guess a REAL short list is as follows:
- Change the entry in Gouken/Fei’s reverse DP second input that says “Any Down, Any Forward” to “Any Down”.
- Make all regular Tatsus lock OR reduce startup.
- Improve palms startup and speed and less safe OR increase safety
- No brainer!
- Tatsu hits low and reduced startup
- YES!
- Ahhh…mk. My love/hate button. Standing, I prefer improved hitbox…make current 3 frame st.mk (his only 3 frame normal) his standard mk and far st.mk a command normal. Improve crouching mk hitbox to cleanly hit above Gouken.
- Prefer increased safety…make lp and mp.palm neutral (or under -3 at least) on block or increase pushback to make reversals less likely to hit.
and my addendum:
Improved backdash
Stronger command divekick
I still want forward mp to link to sweep. Make the opponent guess for once.
Cr.mp combos to fireball
Additional ultra option akin to Gen which is a kongoshin ultra (I just like the idea)
Bring back no recovery on whiffed flip grab or no recovery on air parry.
In short, make Gouken safer and more dangerous.
special note: I remember looking at the old ae2012 capcommunity thread and it seemed like some of the weirdest shit ended up sticking maybe some have not noticed…
the seeming"kongo absorb glitch" was actually made to be usable or at least has more applications, meaning someone knowingly changed something…in super it recovered way too slow to be considered for anything, but after someone said soemthing it seemed like it was made to finish recovery at “+1-2?? Neville anyone?” Some of you may recall in LeoPrada’s vid he shows off one application vs a non meaty dj rh from ken, kongo absorb followed by a throw …
far mk on counter hit now links to some obscure ass tatsu or palm or soemthing cant recall exactly…it is kind of odd tho.
Small List
improve range of the combo cr.lk x lp senku by slightly decreasing pushback of cr.lk and slightly increasing hitbox of lp senku. No change to frames, so should still be safe on block. And no change to damage or stun (already low). Does not need to combo on absolute max range, but should be noteworthy improved.
= improve mid range footsies and improved pressure tool
improve backdash range from 0.8 to 9.5 (like Rufus or Sakura) or 1.0 (like Sagat, Guile, Bison). As offset add 1 or 2 frames. Would still be in the lower mid of back dashes compared to the rest of the cast.
= improve one defensive option as well as for positioning
increase the hight of kongo’s activation boxes, i.e. they should be overlapping a bit more so that most crouching normals can be countered by lp kongo, e.g. Ryus cr.mp can be low countered but not his cr.lp. Similar for anti air kongo and deeper jump ins.
= improve Gouken’s signature move to make it more reliable now that it has 3 activation zones, which would also improve his basic mix up of poking, throw or counter in close range
improve the hit/hurtbox of Gouken’s number one poke far.mk. Should not trade so much when used as far anti air when zoning or normal poking. Slightly increase the hitbox downwards, so stupid things like dashing in below Gouken’s far.mk does not happen, e.g. Adon.
= improve Gouken’s max range poke
reduce charge time of Gouken 2hit fireball from 68frames to 55frames (btw Oni = 45frames). Decrease dmg from 110 to 100 or 90 as offset.
= improve zoning and fireball mix ups
increase hit/block stun of cr.mk to +0 on hit and -3 on block. On hit still does not combo in cancelled lp hado (only on counterhit).
= improve safe jump OS crouch tech set ups after hard knockdown
Bugfix:
The backward, forward , backward kongo bug…
I believe these buffs would noteworthy strengthen Gouken’s defensive zoning and poking gameplan without changing the underlying design of the character and without turning up side down the tiers…
How about a gouken community poll for reasonable changes?
EDIT: (to make it more understandable)
Complete overhaul of the old men which will anyway never happen…
My drastic changes would involve disabling backthrow in Ultra and giving him hitconfirms from jabs. Ex tatsu hitting low and launching higher and wider for consistent ex tatsu x fadc – ultra combos (Rufus style). An immediate (no charging) 2hit ex fireball. And the escape option ex flip in ex air tatsu, and, and, and, and, and…
Disable backthrow to Ultra??? Gouken would suffer tremendously… Please god no…
To be frank, I wouldn’t miss it for a second. Remove the possibility of leading to ultra and make it 3f with normal techtiming.easiest way to avoid ultra would be to narrow the window after, to still allow follow ups make tatsus 3,5 and 7f startup respectively and make the window 8f or so. Still allows the option of just sweep after.
yeah, if Tatsu was 3 frames and didn’t drop and he could jab link into damage, I could see it.
Other than that, I wouldn’t give it up b/c it would screw his guessing game up close… the threat of back throw get’s me easy counter hits.
They’d also have to fix the way opponents, popping up in the air for fadc ultra on all tatsu’s if they changed that. Gouken doesn’t have many ways to land full ultra without backthrow and meter.
Currently, if I land Denjin after backthrow it’s usually to put them at stun on the next hit, or for me to stun them after they are dizzy. AND Gouken get’s the Hard Knock Down set up afterwards.
When I think about changes for Gouken, all I’m really concerned about is him being buffed to not lose momentum.
-Both Palm and Tatsu zone the opponent, Gouken loses momentum on both of these unless in the corner
-Make lp palm hard knock them down so you can continue pressure. (it already does shit damage)
-cr. mp > hado get’s reversaled or dashed through
-Make it combo and be true block string
-cr. lk doesn’t link to cr. mp
-allow cr. lk > cr. mp
-far./cr mp st. mp an cr. roundhouse
-allow cl./far/cr mp to link to cr. roundhouse
-GF Grab- can’t safe jump afterwards
-reduce the recovery
Gouken has a 1 frame move for jump ins other AA’s, so I think people should be able to safe jump tatsu. Gouken already can’t be safe jumped or crossed up on either side so having 2 regular specials that beat every jump in situation might be a bit much… but tatsu dropping people and having a strong reversal is my major concern. make it operate like Tiger Uppercut, allow it to lock on and call it a day, that way it can be safe jumped, other than that no one would ever touch him.
and lastly… air tatsu… you can hit some one with that shit and still get punished b/c Gouken hasn’t recovered yet… Hard Knock Down??
As you can see, everything I wan’t leads to Gouken keeping people away more effectively when grouded, and being able to keep them momentum by having them on their back per a true Vortex.
I think any buff in the wrong direction would make Gouken too powerful or too shitty at this point.
…
Backthrow stays…watch it. Don’t want some weird shit …it works good cause the off timing
backthrow is pretty ass since grey damage. All the good shit like 1 hit j mp to mk tatsu and corner combos got fucked since that. We still have setups but we would still have setups if Gouken had a good backthrow like Adon’s or Fei long’s. That 1 grey dmg really makes it debatable whether or not it’s actually a good throw anymore.
The fact that cr mp doesn’t even combo on hit is some bullshit.
I get a lot of counter hits bc people want to avoid back throw, it’s still good but Gouken can’t kill you just because you didn’t tech. We just can’t use it to KO everybody anymore just b/c we landed a throw.
If Gouken is enable to jab link to combos, and tatsu worked like srk… you can bet your left nut his damage would be nerfed to shit.
There are reset’s out of back throw that opponents can’t do shit about from an offensive standpoint, some even defensively. I remember reading some where that Sagat for example was immune to Gouken’s back throw reset set ups… and I laughed hard as hell b/c it’ s not true.
I’m glad they nerfed back throw b/c I got sick of seeing Gouken getting his ass kicked, and then getting a lucky throw and wins the match.
Does back throw suck b/c it’s ass? or does back throw suck b/c Denjin does shit damage without charging it. I think the backthrow nerf was centered around, nerfing the set up for backthrow to U1 and Denjin was affected indirectly. Maybe they should up the damage/stun off of U2 from the first 4 hits to fix. The overall damage can be the same, but they could somehow front load some of the damage.
However, back throw is at the bottom of my list when it comes to my Gouken concerns.
It combo’s just not to anything the we want it to… Even worse…
What are the priority fixes that we all can agree on?
- Tatsu?
what else?
From greatest to least I guess…
Tatsu-hits low, non-ex can’t be thrown(lk only?), doesn’t drop opponents, FADC followups are more consistent
Cr.mp combos usefully (to hado)
Better backdash
Standing Kongo glitch eliminated
Command divekick improvement
Current far mk becomes a command move, current cl.st.mk becomes default?
More damage and stun for Denjin’s first 4 hits;reduce damage of additional hits to offset (We think alike, I recommended this in another post in this thread)
Faster recovery after successful flip grab for better follow up options
Air tatsu recovery decreased
Faster fireball charge time
And other things that seem to be in debate…at least in my mind lol.
Senku: Safer palms? More pushback on block? Invincibility frames on lp. palm? More invincibility during mp and hp palm’s travel?
Air Parry: Decrease/eliminate air parry recovery? Parry possible immediately after flip activates for more mobility/escape options?
Normals:???
Back throw sucks because grey damage. Not because Denjin sucks, Denjin is amazing, super stun, decent dmg, and super combo-able (for Gouken). The resets you get off of it is good, but actual DP stuffing/unblockables are better.
Also, I wish I can get counter hits because my opponents want to avoid b throw. But it’s always tech’d. cl st mp doing me no favors even though it should. I am probably just a dry and predictable player when it comes to mixups cuz Im scared of reversals.
Yea I definitely want lp palm to travel farther at least. All palms cept EX can be a bit safer.
I don’t think that it is really. It’d be nice if it does of course, but it’s just a sideffect of how our moves work. I assume the complaint is mainly because of Ryu c.MK xx Hadou, and the main reason that ours doesn’t get that is because we have an incredible recovery on our Hadou and have to sacrifice somethings to get that.
Our c.MP is actually 1f faster in total compared to Ryu’s c.MK, so it is entirely because of our Hadou that it doesn’t combo and that’s because we have a slow startup to compensate for our incredible recovery. For them to allow the move to combo on hit it only needs 2 frames of extra hitstun(means move is -2 on block and +3 on hit). However that means it only combos on pointblank distances, long distances will still not combo and will need more drastic changes and get very risky depending on what is chosen.
It’s not nonsense that they never did even this simple, it mean we get a low hitting long range 5f move that is +6 on counterhit, a very strong tool for any character not to mention for Gouken.
Standing Kongo Glitch
priority fixes
tatsu
st cl mp, cr hp, ex palm make that it combos regardless of spacing
extend st cl mp hitbox so it doesn’t whiff on reeling animation hitbox after a jump in
kongo activation glitch (not standing glitch)
I don’t get why everyone is desperate for the standing glitch to be fixed. I thin it definitely has its applications.
As for cr mp, what could actually happen if it is +6 on counter hit (+3 regular)? This is accounting for the extending the hitstun for cr mp and no changes for frame count.
We get:
- A 1 frame gap frametrap from st cl mp cr mp into cr hp (best case, close enough for 1st part of cr hp) ex palm to hk tatsu, standard punish combo.
-The same would also apply for a raw cr mp, but that would take some pretty crazy reactions at a really close range for the cr mp, fairly situational.
combos in lp fireball, gives gouken a bit better abare damage. 70+ 55 damage, 125 dmg guaranteed if you clip an opponent with cr mp. Something to make him much more solid. I think it’s fair to ask for that instead of the current alternative, which is risking chip damage when you can eat DP or focus into punish combo. - It would also make cr mp 0 on block, which means that it still easy to DP or focus a fireball followup on block. Which is fine.
-More random links to increase Gouken’s damage in footsies, all situational. Cr mp st cl mk lp palm is the only one that is non counter hit. - On counter hit, we have a little more combo opportunities. Cr mp, st mp , mp palm. Cr mp, cr lk. Cr mp… well into lp, lk, mk… stuff that wouldn’t make much sense…
-The biggest thing would be a 1 fr link into sweep. This is the most debatable part right here. We already have st hp counter hit into sweep, but cr mp is a better normal by tons. This buff by itself would make Gouken actually incredibly deadly at medium distances when he already has a very good sweep.
For the sake of my laziness, lets just boil it down to the important points.
-Gives gouken 1 more good frame trap\counterhit opportunity, albeit huge damage is dependent on spacing. Will still link into sweep if too far for cr hp.
-Increases gouken’s abare damage by almost x2
-Gives gouken the ability to counter hit into sweep with a good normal at medium range.
That’s all I can think of in terms of what +6 on counterhit can do. If you have more, feel free to add. +6 sounds really intimidating, but you have to remember that all of Gouken’s moves are incredibly slow. What makes a tool good is determined by what other tools are there to support it. Even DP FADC would only be “ok” if none of them combo’d into anything. Seth’s tandem engine is amazing, but if you give it to Dhalsim, it’s pretty much retarded. Give it to Gief, and its OP. Do you see my point?
In terms of Gouken’s tools and how it would affect everything, I think of it in which aspect they affect.
Footsies = Almost incredible, the extra damage can really make the opponent eat it, we all know how many times Gouken can land cr mp.
Pressure/frametraps = Fairly good, we get an extension that gives us a second chance to give us a limited (because of distance) but effective frame trap
So in total, we would get a really decent boost, which I say it’s not too bad in the grand scheme of things, considering the other shenanigans the other characters get.
PS: I checked the frame data again, so we would technically also get EX palm on a counter hit cr mp if at the minimum spacing required for EX palm. Then I’d say increase hitstun on cr hp so that it isn’t -8 on block and -4 on hit, increase ex palm+1 startup, and give st cl hp +1 active,hitstun, and recovery frame so that it says cancelable, but whiff frames, and recovery on hit and block doesn’t change, or you can nerf it so that it’s punishable a block or hit, I do feel that’s somewhat appropriate. Problem solved. And please don’t try to convince me that st cl hp is going to be any sort of useful outside of combos.
It has it’s applications, it’s like a gift and a curse with footsies. If you are moving back and forward and you press punch you get kongo. Good for punishing attacks when positioning for footsies, Bad when you want to poke with a normal and not get kongo.
Scenario… you are moving back and forth and some one jumps in… you press back and press hp to do standing hp and you get kongo… they either empty jump or you hit you in the mid = Gouken get’s blown up
You have to go to neutral or make sure you are pressing forward to avoid the input bug. I don’t have a problem with it, but I can see how if you are in a heated match that you can press punch and get kongo while not wanting to, and that sucks.
On the other hand, you can literally move Gouken back and forth and react to an attack pressing back and the appropriate punch button, I think that’s sick as shit, but you can easily rotate to down back and get the same thing.
Having this input bug, is about as bad as when tatsu and low kongo overlapped. You had to do extra inputs to make sure that you got what you wanted…
I rather have Gouken set up for that I get kongo only when I want to, not because I happened to press the button at the wrong time.
Consistency is always the best option, which sums up almost all of the changes we want for Gouken.
-low hitting tatsu
-cr. fp EX Palm always working
-etc. etc.
That’s the whole point of counter hitting them, if they are teching the shit out of back throw then throw a normal out there or lp palm instead. No one wants to be back thrown.
As far as the reversal options, it’s all about who you are dealing with and what the situation is.
-Can they FADC? If so, then keep EX to EX Flip so if they try to spam reversal to FADC they whiff and you blow their asses up for it.
-If they can’t FADC- then you either block or EX Flip to bait the shit out to the reversal and blow their asses up. Normally just save the EX For when they can FADC as your primary option.
-When they stop trying to reversal, then they either tech, back dash, or do nothing… Counter hit will beat everything but doing nothing and back dashing, but if they do nothing, they get back thrown… which starts the mind game all over again.
-If you have them back dashing, then that’s what you really want in the first place as they are moving away from Gouken and you get the chance to OS sweep them > the same set up.
If you want to get an idea if they are a masher or not, just use cr. lp chains and then randomly stop. They shouldn’t be able to hit you while you are doing chain jab, even on block… however online lag can occasionally leave gaps in your strings. Once you stop your chain jabs, if they are mashing reversal, then you punish accordingly.
If you find them teching, when you stop your jab strings then low kongo them when you stop jabbing.
Aside from the command grabbers, Gouken is probably the only other character that you really don’t want to be thrown by (I willfully take the throw in many cases, but against Gouken everytime I’m back thrown I’m like SHIT). Factor in when you have U1 or U2 lit up, and you will find people doing everything trying to avoid backthrow… especially when you have a stocked U1. Use it to your advantage.
Knowing the “meter rules” for each character is essential, b/c you can lp palm them on their wake up and if they don’t have meter they get their reversal and their tech blown up. You’d be surprised how Gouken shuts shit down, in many scenarios on A LOT of the cast if they wake up without meter.
I usually find, that back dashing is normally the best option against Gouken after the safe jump.