in the moment i believe it is an autom. 7fr safe j.mk cross up. a 4fr safe cross up wouldnt be too bad, although i don use the flip throw much outside of guessing, i.e. challenging the opp’s aa capabilities…
You guys saying normal tatsu would be one of the best reversals ever do realize it is only upper body invincible so a low hitting tatsu will get stuffed by a cr.lk, right? Only thing a low hitting tatsu would do is make it useable in ground combos.
Also Gouken has a 3 frame normal, it is close standing mk
These lists are crazy lol. Gouken is almost toting the line of being broken now if you really think about. I know I will catch alot of flack from the statement but seriously sit and think about it. You give Gouken ONE standard move from anybody else and yes, he’s broken. Give him a dp and see what happens. You cannot say that about any other character in this game. Give Sakura a dp, a REAL dp, would she be broken? Nope. Harder to deal with but not broken as she already has ex dp that has crazy invinciblity. Give, lets say, Guy a teleport, would he be broken? Nope. Harder to catch but not broken. But give Gouken ANYTHING that somebody from the rest of the cast has and he undoubtedly will be broken. A teleport? A dp (even 4-5 frame), an instant palm like Akuma? Even if it wasnt armor breaking, the mixup potential and the damage he deals would be broken. I could go on.
I’m just saying, sometimes I hear good stuff (like someone mentioning the whole push a certain button after ex hado to get a second low, mp, hp hado )but alot of the times in this thread its stuff that would be great for us, yes, but would be broken or borderline. I was reading IAM’s list up there and that shit is godlike. But give him ALL that stuff?
I hear alot of people complain about his command dive kick not having alot of hitstun. Its SUPPOSED to have short hitstun. Akuma, E. Ryu, Gouken, they’re all the same. Its an overhead for crying out loud. You want an overhead divekick? Yall telling me Goukens gf dive kick from vanilla wasnt broken?
Side note: I do agree that ex palm could be a bit faster
Give us all tatsus to hit low and throw invincible and he will be a monster. Thats not quite a dp because we have terrible startup on most of them but lk and ex will catch ANY button your opponent pushes and I will gladly take that. This is our only issue…wakeup. Wakeup issue fixed in the next update? I seriously cant see anyone complaining about Gouken ever again, myself included.
Fix tatsu, fix the kongo bug (which in turn would fix the input shortcut bug that give you tastu when someone switches sides) and maybe 3 things off IAM’s and Reipen list collectively and Gouken will be A tier, undoubtedly - and not broken.
Yo! I totally agree. That’s brilliant. EX Tatsu should lose invincibility at its feet - fucking problem solved!!!
Cheers Reipin - I’m not sarcastic.
I wasn’t fond of EX Tatsu getting the SRK-properties - all the other juveniles would suddenly master this character and I ain’t with that, but as I was saying - I think you honestly solved the problem.
With this buff, I don’t think EX Kongo winning over armor breakers is necessary anymore.
As for my personal list of buffs, I’d continue with:
- More range on LP Palm.
- Faster traveling speed on HP Palm and EX Palm - so they ALWAYS connect after our hit confirm combo.
- Initial hit of non-EX Tatsus to draw the opponent closer for a better chance of landing the following kicks.
- Easier Denjin.
- More range on initial hit of HK Tatsu, so it combos better on moves with a little too much push-back sometimes, like cr. MP.
etc? Hrm… Ya never know.
- How could I forget? Fix the Kongo bug, and overlap the three zones MUCH better.
I was not suggesting that EX lose invincibility at the feet. That makes every single tatsu useless in a wake up situation. I’m not sure why you think that making an EX move, a move that requires bar, and three to be safe, should be worse than a HP dp.
On our wake up, if we EX Tatsu and the opponent does crouching light kick (or something), we always miss and eat a full scale punish.
This would solve that problem, wouldn’t it? We can’t hit anything down there (huh?) anyway, so we don’t really even need the invincibility, and frankly we’d benefit from just removing it.
Or is there something I haven’t realized? I only picked up the ball after you and it sounds like a good idea to me.
No. Seriously. No.
You missed the part where I think EX tatsu should hit low as well since it cost a bar. It should at least be equal to a non EX dp (and in reality it still wouldn’t be due to 7 frame startup).
Gouken flip slide an cr lk meaty beat ex tat on startup…it really needs a bigger hit box from the shoulders up and diagonally.
Charged fbs should causr more hitstun and blockstun, talk about pursuit property!
We need supr fierce palm back…tatsus should hit low mid and hi…more invincibility.
I would rather have 2 zone kongos mapped to kicks as before ae, we really need to be able to go hi to lo kongo to absorb fireballs for free it also worked just a bit better than currently…those hi lo simultaneous attacks didnt stand a chance in super…now sim and guile usually get freebies if we have no ex and or they time them close enuf.
We should also be able to fadc out of our cmd overhead mp,its recent iteration us doubtless an upgrade from super
Flip throw should work as an AA
After flip parry we should be able to cancel into other shit, whatever just needs more options,costs meter of course
Dj hk should csncel to air tatsu, his poke game would be insane as he could dj hk to the neck then flee
Cancels to. … Pre gflip arc zenith
Air parry on djj back
Less recovery from flip throw and flip parry
Cmd dive kick at any point in fwd jump arc post zenith
I dunno… maybe it’s just the way that I think and the things I like to abuse, aside from being able to link to sweep or less recovery after GF Grab, Gouken doesn’t need to be able to have more jump in shenanigans… especially being able to Air Parry their wake up.
Akuma’s DF Palm is only active for 2 frames I believe AND it knocks you down. Gouken can air parry take half of your health and possibly win the round with 1 or two good sets ups. That’s just too strong of a jump in option on somebody’s wake up, considering all the other shit we can do.
Off the top of my head, these would become useless for on wake… Yangs srk kick, Tiger Uppercut, Cammy Cannon Strike, Rog Head Butt, most srks, T Hawks srk, Adons srk, Dudley’s srk, most of Akumas srks, Dans srk, Ibukis srk… And I’m sure there’s a lot more I’m forgetting… Point is they’d be absolutely free on wake up and 50/50 on wake with their main option is to do nothing or get blown up lol…
As far as hammer fist… Akuma does that to everybody, to us just a little worse b/c we can’t really reversal without ex… cr. lk can avoid a lot of it… but that’s why it’s critical to let tatsu just hit people period. I just don’t understand why Gouken’s don’t want a good offensive reversal that would also beat throws.
Gouken’s Flip has a different arc than Akumas, and Gouken has better flip options up close than Akuma. Everyone focus’ on yes the main difference are GF Parry and DF Palm… but there flips are to be used in totally different ways, while yet still similar. Gouken can do almost everything Akuma can off of flip and I’m some situations he can do more.
The weakest thing about Gouken is you can throw him. Not That Akuma’s Palm is that much stronger for when you have EX for Tatsu you pop him for it. LK tatsu is already 7 frames, and only EX lower invincible.
I just think, giving Gouken a jump in option per air focus on their wake is just a bad idea… Considering you can beat 95% of them now anyway. It would just make a lot of reversals not useful and everyone would complain about their wake up options vs Gouken. You get free pressure or risk losing half your shit bc he air parried your wake. I can see that possibly on non-wake reversals… But wake up reversals need to blow up focus as it does now.
Lol… You would just be mind fucked half the time off of the fact that you just can’t hit him or cr. tech… Most of those moves lose to low counter too, so it would be easy as shit to do… Just wait and mash… And that makes everyone of our options that much stronger. Especially back throw…
I just dont want to see a air focus and parry fest with Gouken… Having Kongo and Air parry immune to reversals w/o armor break would do just that.
Maybe it’s just not that big of a deal… It just seems super strong to me bc it looks a lil brain dead.
Aside from teleport which you can os… Akuma gets locked down on wake by Gouken too as is.
DF palm is a hard knockdown which is allows Akuma to go right back to his bullshit.
You say their main option is to do nothing or get blown up but you are forgetting that if they do nothing and get DF thrown, they are out of pressure. If they do nothing and block demon flip kick then they are ok, if they mindlessly reversal and we parry, yes, they get blown up. If they do nothing and we parry, we get blown up. It’s not mindless. You also forget that a reversal beats the kick and the throw. You also know that a parry cannot be done like a safe a jump. You have to commit to the dive kick or the parry before they are up, they have time to read it if they have deft reactions. There is risk and reward.
Akuma can’t hammer fist everyone for free, c.lk will only avoid a poorly timed flip fist. A perfectly timed one will stuff even cr.lk. Even with EX we cannot stop it. EX tatsu is too slow, EX kongo gets shattered. If we EX tatsu we get blown up… What’s the difference here? The difference is that if Akuma does flip palm and we do nothing he does not get blown up like we would if we air parried and they did nothing. If Akuma flip throws he gets free set up into more flip shit, we don’t. If he flip kicks we both get the same thing.
Gouken cannot do the same shit as Akuma off a flip. We are going to have to agree to disagree on that. Akuma gets a hard knockdown from the throw and the palm and can go right back to another safe flip attack. Gouken cannot. In all instances if you block whatever Akuma does he can continue to apply pressure with his walk speed, frame traps, and throw game. Gouken does not have the same luxury.
Yes, you would get blown up if you reversaled and we air parried, but the flip side is if I air parry and you do nothing I also get blown up and lose momentum. Just because people punish with a throw now cause they are not used to Gouken does not mean good people don’t punish missed counters/parries with much more fierce shit.
Yes, it would be strong and good and allow us to open people up. That’s what I want. Other people are getting buffs, we need them as well. I don’t think Gouken’s biggest weakness is getting thrown, I don’t even think his biggest weakness is his wakeup. I think it is his inability to make people panic and open them up for damage. He has no rushdown cause all his stuff throws people full screen if you are successful with damage. Overhead that can’t link to anything is not scaring anyone.
I know this forum thinks demon flips are the scariest most bestial tool in the entire SF4 game, but I disagree. It merely allows you to get safe jump ins, it blows up no one that knows what is going on. In fact, you are probably right, thinking about it air parry being unbreakable would be useless cause the opponents best option is just to block and punish an air parry or block a dive kick and deal with the pressure. They already block and deal with the “pressure” cause they know a safe jump when they see one and they have nothing to fear from the flip cause a throw leads to nothing. Basically, no one ever has a reason to reversal a flip. Ever.
God damn it.
Slow your roll bub…
I guess we are playing 2 diff game then. Aside from Successful GF grab follow up what can Akumas DF do that ours can’t??? We got all the same cross ups AND EX Flip avoids reversals AND can net a cross up up close… We also can cross up flip from almost any distance… Including safe jump.
Again… Akuma doesn’t take half your life off of his DF jump ins… That’s just too strong to have. Akuma just knocks you down and restarts the vortex… Gouken would parry and take half of their health or net easy back throw > Ultra… That’s too good.
You want to open people up, then do it from hit confirms and links like everybody else… Don’t just ignore the focus system to get it.
If you don’t agree with it… So fucking what… I still think is too strong to have.
I’m telling you Goukens Flip gives you the same vortex options as Akuma and you can cross up and ambig from every single normal he has. And EX Flip makes them whiff for max punish… Wtf???
DF palm is active 2 frames!! Parry is active until the ground… Why couldn’t you safe jump with it… Have you seen how long you can delay the flip??? You can delay it until the start animations of his slide… I’d break it for sure… And a few others will too.
Not to mention you want the shit to be 4 fucking landing frames so its virtually unpunishable just like Akuma…
It’s a good idea, it’s just waaaaay to strong.
I make people panic with Gouken all the time bc they either have to block bc none of their reversals work and they dont want to get back thrown so you counter hit the throw tech.
I’ve said a long time ago Akumas flip palm needs to be 5 or 6 frames recovery.
That aside… Akuma can DF throw you and follow up… Which i want the same option for Gouken, and he can link to sweep which I’d like for Gouken.
People who sit and block either get crossed up or GF thrown… And baited out. Not as good as Akuma but we have some good frames traps… And a lot of match ups you can force your opponent to just block that’s their only option… It really makes someone not want to hit Gouken at all… And makes reversals too easily punishable… At least it takes skill to use the gf dive kick properly… Any one can flip and air parry wake with a 4 frame landing… It just too strong… That’s just my opinion… Debating is going to change anything.
Aside from the palm set ups… Show me what dive kick set ups your like to see Gouken replicate… I don’t need to agree to disagree what I’m giving you is factual and i can show you.
Even though I am not an Akuma master, I do know the differences between he and Goukens flip, and I know our vortex exceptionally well.
I’d just rather see Successful GF grab safe jump able afterwards to continue pressure… A 4 frame landing, active until ground, immune to non armor reversal, air parry is just too strong IMO…
There are other ways to make the character better, giving him a free jump in is jjust too op for how I use him…
Poor Gen… He already has it bad enough trying to get up,'Sakura lol…, Chun no ex, Dhalsim lol,
I will go on record right now and say Gouken has the same or more cross ups as Akuma and I’m not backing down from that at all.
If he could link to sweep and follow up GF Grab with safe jump what would make us that much diff?? From a GF/DF stand point???
I actually agree with almost all of your suggestions… I just think another jump in option is too strong for me.
My dude knows sooo much bout tgis old fuck how can u disagree…personally i never have i dont think…anyways…i for one know first hand goukens gflip is the deepest most releavant misunderstood underused by pro-ukens, it is the holy grail
How about a lil more juggle on fbs…?
How about first hit on tatsu we are standing then go airborne afterwards…so if they low attack we can kongo their bs if we can squeeze it in…
Standing with 3 dif heights lo hi and mid, lo launches into juggleable, mid doesnt, hi doesnt but the two latter create hard knockdowN
I forgot why this happens but i tried to ex tat honda as he was finishing headbutt and possibly cuz i was airborne but the tatsuhit him in the forehead but he still landed…lol
If it was life or desth at evo tho id go w iams suggestions on safe jump after flip throw…
Tre chiic
Gouken also needs some help in regard to frame traps, almost all his normals are negative or zero on block witht the exception of close MP (+4) and far MP (+1) which are very situational.
Normals which could be buffed slightly:
cr.lp blocked from 0 to +1
far.lk blocked from 0 to +1
far.hp, cr.mk, crl.lk, and some other may also be good candidates for minor buffs.
OS tech cr.mk needs to be noteworthy overhauled in term of frame data…
Tatsu should just hit low and lock/hard knock down and non throwable. They can hit him out it bc I has 0 invincible frames lower body and it gives a max punish. If you miss 2 of em, it can be the end of the round in most cases… Not to mention you can safe jump the dickens out of it.
It would be the perfect balance between Kongo and tatsu/palm.
Some one wants to throw you, you tatsu them… If they go for hit you Kongo them.
Or you can just block an wait bc they may do nothing fearing either and give you breathing room and if you happened to cr tech you can push them back… And with low links you could combo them or os lp palm after the crouch tech.
It’s not even close to covering all of your bases like a srk and is 4 frames slower with 0 invincibility… Sheesh! Ex would be godlike bc it hits low… and it should be, and it would STILL take 3 bars to be made safe for fadc.
right now… If Gouken has no meter, just fucking grab him. He can only choose a defensive option.
Being thrown too easily bc of no good offensive reversal, and few links especially low links have always been my biggest challenge.
We already have plenty of jump in options… I’m just saying.
Now Kongo / air parry not losing to non armor reversals in non-wake up situations I am all for… But folk should be able to get up.
Akuma’s hammer fist is just a really really really good move that Akuma has… I always wished his armor break was on is tatsu instead of df palm and that would take a ton of pressure off of Gouken just like that. It still lands in 4 frames so he could still punish you for trying to can’t against it… And he still has his 2 and 3 hit fireballs, cr mk > hado, flip cancels, ex tatsu, focus, df grab, And st. Hk to deal with focus attackers. He just couldn’t dummy the move for free and had to play more intelligent, but he’d still retain all the shit he can do with it now aside from breaking focus moves. He’d still be able to land and do whatever he wanted. Without the Armor break.
Us in turn could kongo him for doing dumb shit and force him to mix up his moveset… And take away his auto pilot. It would take skill to use it, which is what we want.
I’m not looking for tatsu to be the godsend for AA. But as an add on to our ground game and defense.
Anyway… I’m done with my rant.
I’m not reading all of this cause (but I did read a tiny bit)…
In case you don’t read it all, the TL;DR version is that my suggestion of making air parry unbreakable to reversals is useless, not overpowered. I don’t even want it anymore.
A) You got way too defensive when I disagreed, acting as if it was a challenge. We are just discussing points.
B) Hit confirms don’t “open” people up. They don’t force mistakes or make people antsy to hit a button. Hit confirms have nothing to do with pressure or breaking down back.
C) The fact Akuma can follow up with more safe flip shenanigans after the throw is THE KEY difference. It means EVERYTHING. If Akuma could not follow up with another flip vortex after throw, guess what? I’d gladly take that throw and I could give a shit less about Akuma and his flip palm/kick/throw. The automatic right thing to do if Akuma could not follow up after DF throw would be to… dun dun dun… BLOCK. I would never reversal because I’d only have to take that throw and I am out or I will block a kick or palm and I am out.
Right now when you get hard knocked down Akuma has three options if he flips. Throw, palm, kick. He never needs to do kick, can we agree on that? His palm will do a hard knockdown on you and so will his throw.
Your options are to reversal or block or backdash. Backdash will just get you OSed into a sweep back into this stuff.
You already know that if he does palm your reversal is going to whiff and you will eat a raging demon or get comboed back into a hard knockdown and back into this whole scenario. If he does a throw, you get 200 damage. The risk reward is in his favor here, agreed? So now that you know reversalling a palm is stupid and is a negative risk/reward for you by a large margin, you know blocking is your best option. You block a palm and then you just have to deal with the pressure afterwards from tick throws or frame traps.
The problem is, he knows the best option is for you to block, so he can throw you and if he does, you are right back into this scenario. So basically, your options are to keep taking throw damage until he decides to stop and go for palm and then deal with that pressure, or reversal and risk losing 200 to 500 damage and put back into the same loop again or deal 200 damage (and lose an EX bar) if he went for throw.
Which segues into my last and final point…
D) My suggestion is not overpowered. It is useless. Your best option will ALWAYS be to block vs a Gouken hard knockdown flip. You have NOTHING to gain from reversalling. Your best option is to block. EACH and EVERY time. We cna parry and if you block you get a free punish. We can kick, and if you block you just have to deal with Gouken’s weak follow up pressure game, or you can block and get thrown which gets you out of this anyway cause we don’t have Akuma like recovery to go into another flip. Followup dj.mk is reversallable with auto correct.
How can I disagree? You serious? If I could block you somehow I would. Go read why not only do I think parry flip being unbreakable on wakeup is not overpowered, I actually now think it is god damn useless now that I have thought it through. Only people it would matter for is people with three frame reversals that don’t hit more than once.
You don’t go to Evo and neither does he, and if you do, then his advice hasn’t helped you much there. There is no safe jump after flip throw. DJ.MK can be autocorrect reversalled.
What does that have to do with any damn thing??? l dont’ need to go to evo b/c bottom line I make more money than these fucking pro players period.
Dj. MK can be safe jumped per cross up… where the fuck have you been??? And on the other end it will either stuff them or take advantage of the auto-correct window and send them the wrong way. And until the do something about why the unblockbable/hard to blockables work the way they do, it will be that way.
I ALREADY SAID THERE’S NO SAFE JUMP AFTER FLIP THROW… Get your panties out your ass, slow down and read.
Did YOU win EVO nigga???
We need the picture again…