Reading some of the proposed buffs for some of the other characters (which could all be speculation anyway) and the addition of new characters…I feel one of two ways: Excited because they HAVE TO really buff Gouken to keep up with some of this stuff OR really worried that I will have to switch characters or just stop playing.
Well to be honest, if they are really listening they will take here add there and so on!! When I saw zanguief recent buff wolfkrone complained about it and he said it’d be a tougher match up than what already is, coming from him and after seeing his performance in evo when he lost to itashi’s zanguief I was like damn!!! That is a tough mu!!! So let’s hope, take a seat and wait(you can add the popcorn if you want!!! Lol)
lol.
I’m thinkin’, that if we are to have just 1 buff, it should be EX Kongo becoming invincible to absolutely everything but throws.
Well it cant because right now kongo is based of the focus system. I want them to remove that and give us a REAL couunter like Duds or Juri. Shit, Juri doesnt even take grey damage. BUT if they take it off the focus attack system then that means we would lose the capabilty to cancel out or fadc. That means no kongo into super and no kongo fadc ultra in the corner.
I want them to make kongo stronger, definitely remove that bullshit ass bug but dont completely change the mechanic. Personally I want kongo to have a longer recovery, maybe up it from 18 to 20 frames and have less of an active touch point maybe from 14 frames down to 8-10 but not break on reversal. That way its stronger, yes, but only as strong as the person using it because you have to have pinpoint accuracy in knowing exactly what your opponent is gonna do and when exactly he’s gonna do it. I think thats fair for the strength it would be given.
I think the following should be done:
Regular counter:
- revert to a two zone concept plus some sort of faint or alternatively let the hit boxes overlap a bit more for more consistent results vs. cr.attacks and deep jump ins
- otherwise no changes as this is more like a fix
EX version should have special properties:
- ex counter will also activate by throws during active frames (which is similar to invincible srks stuffing throw attempts)
- bring down damage/stun to 100/100 or maybe even lower
- shorten active counter frames from 14 to 10
- increase recovery from 18 to 25
- but leave FADC for followups; Super cancel not applicable due to ex version
- dont know about reversal focus break…
Summary: fix (!) regular hitboxes and nerf ex version for special properties, i.e. ex counter will be activated by throws.
That way we would have an proper ex reversal which can still be baited and (heavily) punished, by just doing nothing right out of throw range. EDIT: But the most valuable point would be, that heavy rushdown character, like Cammy, Akuma, etc. would needto stop their autopilot on Gouken’s wake up to bait it out. This on the other hand gives Gouken breathing room to reset the situation and possibly escape the vortex… It would be similar like having an SRK, that forces the attacker to occasionally stop their offense.
I am bit worried for requesting this… looking at the counters in SF4 one can see that:
- Juris counter does not do any damage is more an escape (and maybe mix up) tool, furthermore regular has 3fr start up (!)
- duddleys counter can be beaten by lows and fireballs
- Fei’s and Cammy’s Counter Ultra are beaten by throws and fireballs
=> there is always a massive downside, Juri’s counter does not even deal guarenteed dmg. Seemingly Capcom is afraid to incorporate an all purpose counter. And I am afraid that Capcom would add a massive downside somewhere else if they remove Gouken’s counter from the focus system. If reversal break is the only downside to Gouken’s counter (see above proposal) I would live with the need of having a read on the opp if he mashs reversal or not…
What? Plenty of moves are not on the focus system and can be FADCed or are super cancellable. What does the focus system have to do with this? None of that is unique to Kongo.
Thats waay too strong of a special move in my opinion lol.
I said in light of counters…Juri, Dudley, Gouken, Juri and Dudley have good counters but its not piggy backing the fa system. Their counters cant be “broken” but they cant cancel into anything or fadc because of this. Ours is, but we have the capabilty to cancel or fadc because so.
I dont like the fact that we take a risk and kongo and it can be beat be armor breaking moves. It ALREADY has a weakness in being beat by the simplest move in the game, a throw. In the end, I dont even care about it being able to be broken by some moves. I dont like the fact the that special moves become armor break on reversal. All of that I just said has every thing to do with our kongo and it piggy backing the focus sytem. You focus someone on wake and they dp, your focus gets broken. Same with kongo because its the same mechanic. I dont like this BUT…I wouldnt trade it, have it be like Dudleys and not be able to cancel into super or fadc. Im just asking that they tweak it. Give only him the capabilty to not have kongo break on reversal but lower the active window and decrease recovery. Still would lose to throws and we would get combod if the opponent does nothing.
Theres no reason why some characters have ex special moves that armor breaking, over powered AND safe. Thats fuckin bullshit. Ex messiah? EX tatsu from Sak, shes plus on that shit. She cant literally throw it out and if it hits get HUGE juggle potential, resets and all…ultra. And its it doesnt hit shes completely safe. Adon and his broken armor breaking, push back so far, completely safe Jaguar kicks?
If not for nothing they need to keep regular kongo the same and buff only ex. Theres absolutley nothing wrong with changing ONLY the properties of ex. You have to use a bar to make it a still 60/40 guess in my opponents favor. Make only ex not breakable but lower the hitbox active frames. OR make EX not breakable and make it burn two ex bars instead of one. Then we’ll have a kongo.
I think armor break should happen only ifthe opponentbeats your kongo inputby 1 frame or less…
Or make kongo a two part move starting inside of focus…
My point was, I don’t think our counter is FADCable simply because it is on the FA system. I see what you are saying about the others not being FADCable but I can’t imagine Juri being able to since hers is not even an attack. Dudley I don’t know. If our counter was like an FA we’d be able to dash out of it without using two bars 
I see what you are saying now, but that’s not what you said originally
If I had a wishlist it would go something like this:
- Make cl.st.lk chainable and hit low (solves being able to combo from a low hitting light attack, and I can’t think of another move to use, c.lk has too much reach)
- Make far st.lk special cancellable
- Increase hitbox on lp palm so that it can combo from a far light attack
- Make the range of HP palm dependent upon button press. Tap HP it goes current distance. Hold HP and it goes old distance to hit full screen and juggle anti-air fireball snipes.
- Make MP, HP, and EX palm immune to fireballs during the active frames or at least until the hitbox is out so it will trade.
- Give regular tatsu hard knockdown to avoid the one hit drop and get punished or give it “suction” properties like EX Tatsu
- Let EX tatsu hit low. His only true reversal will cost an EX bar and three to get out safe.
- Change kongoshin back to two zones
- Make counter (air and ground) immune to reversal break, not armor break.
- Change cl.st.mk to a command normal to better deal with pressure.
- Increase hit stun on command dive kick so that you can actually combo
- Increase hit stun so that you can combo into fireball.
- Reduce Air parry recovery to 4 frames
This basically increases the usefulness of his tools while only adding a hit confirm starting with low attacks.
If we wanted to get crazy I’d ask for an increase on the size of the hitbox on Ultra 1, and make wall bounce off of an air Denjin hit juggleable.
Both Juri and Dudleys counter still lose to armour breakers though. Dudley’s is nice that it ignores reversal armour break though, but it having 3f startup and no ability to guard low still makes me prefer current Kongo to it(if current Kongo did not have shortcut bug). I still won’t mind seeing a return to 2 zones though and other things. But well see where they go.
I don’t see the harm in bringing his normal move anti air pontential up to say Sakura standards. I rarely see that crouching fierce fail her and she actually still has a real uppercut.
I’m with the people that don’t want him to play like everybody else but dangerous anti air seems to be a must.
She does not have a real uppercut. Cr.hp and cr.mk are pretty badass anti-airs. Sakura c.hp is just unreal but what we have is good enough I think.
Most of our requests seem legit, I agree with pretty much everything Reipin said…
However, I think we may not be seeing the big picture with his kongo, the focus system, and other characters.
Gouken is built around the Focus system for balancing, if we made him immune to it he’d surely be broken.
I wouldn’t trade Gouken’s counter for anyone’s on this game as is. With that in mind… I just think making wake up reversals require armor break to beat kongo or wake up throw would really strong for what Gouken could do to other characters wake up.
Most characters who have a good reversal some times they hit once including ex version, or they don’t have armor break.
The Capcom developers put that restriction on the game to balance out the focus system on the game. So on your wake up, people could only back dash if they didn’t have armor break, because the attacker would focus the one hit or non armor break move and punish them. It’s the benefit of mashing reversal on the game. It can change the momentum if you can access a certain window for whatever reason you choose. Also, the reason why some moves have armor break and some dont’… except when they get reversal
Let’s say Air Focus is immune to reversal armor break IF the move didn’t already have armor break properties. I’d say 95% of the cast couldn’t wake up with out being punished… and that’s pretty much the case now. You could just jump in on them the more because you can focus whatever they do. That would make the cammy match up 7-3 us… b/c all we’d need to do is get 1 knock down and she might not get back up. Sort of like how Akuma used to just palm Gouken’s wake up when his hammer fist was active for forever. I think there are a FEW ways to beat it in that fashion… but that just seems like most people couldn’t even AA Gouken for trying to jump in, because he can jump in whenever he wanted to for the most part.
Let’s say Kongo is immune to reversal armor break IF the move didn’t already have armor break properties. We could literally get EX and just late KONGO almost everything the opponent does. Same shit above. Including LOW Kongo mix up, along with frame traps, and walking up and grabbing.
Crouch Tech leaves you at 0 damage against Dudley and Juri… well Juri’s get’s a Mix up but you can either block, Ex Tatsu, or Kongo. But we can actually BAIT crouch tech and punish with low kongo.
All of this would make his Vortex waaaaay to strong… and Kongo mashing too easy, b/c they Focus system would just not apply to him. He’d be like Scorpion was in the Injustice game, before the nerds.
-Kongo Back to 2 Zones over lapping hit boxes. Kongo Fixed.
-Make ALL Versions of Tatsu hit low, lock and hard knockdown (especially if some one falls out).
-Make Tatsu immune to throw
-EX Palm - Immune to Fireballs and Immune to throw,slightly faster speed
-Palm - lp- increase range, mp- slightly faster speed, hp-throw immune, slightly faster speed.
-Air Focus Landing, change landing to whatever Akuma will have in USF4 for his Demon Flip Palm
-Command Dive Kick- increase hit stun, by 2-3 frames.
-Denjin Easier Rotation requirements
-GF Grab - Less Recovery
-Increase Activation range of his cl. st. hk
And all that other shit that Reipin said… especially about the light attacks.
Do our requests even matter any more at this point to Capcom??
I like reipin and iams lists
Me, too.
-Kongo Back to 2 Zones over lapping hit boxes. Kongo Fixed.
I say this is absolutely bare minimum necessary to get Gouken usable.
-Make ALL Versions of Tatsu hit low, lock and hard knockdown (especially if some one falls out).
Can’t really say, hit low AND with it’s range, and with the FADC ability might turn the worst special into one of the best reversal ever. Tatsu might not hit low, but it does have the best anti-air range out of all AA specials, and one of the highest damage.
-Make Tatsu immune to throw
Definitely a must, especially if Tatsu doesn’t hit low. This is actually what made Tatsu ridiculously weak. Huge recovers, doesn’t hit low, punishable on HIT, AND throwable? wtf capcom?
-EX Palm - Immune to Fireballs and Immune to throw,slightly faster speed
Palm Fireballs immune need fixing, yes, but making this immune to throw might make it become a little too powerful. Faster speed is a must. It is so slow it won’t even combo sometime on c.HP cancel.
-Palm - lp- increase range, mp- slightly faster speed, hp-throw immune, slightly faster speed.
**Speed up would be a nice non-game breaking buff. Still on the edge about throw immune. **
-Air Focus Landing, change landing to whatever Akuma will have in USF4 for his Demon Flip Palm
I don’t understand why Akuma’s palm landing have zero recovery when this Air Focus have more. Need to match Akuma at bare minimum if not better.
-Command Dive Kick- increase hit stun, by 2-3 frames.
Would be nice. Not completely necessary.
-Denjin Easier Rotation requirements
Not a buff, just a fix. Necessary in my opinion
-GF Grab - Less Recovery
Not necessary in my opinion. GF grab are hard to punish as it is.
-Increase Activation range of his cl. st. hk
Gouken’s Footise need helps.
My own addition:
-standing far mk should be a command normal.
-standing and/ or crouching lp should be 3 frame. Just give him SOME 3 frame normal, okay?
-Air Tatus lower height requirement and smaller hit box on his’s dangling leg. DO NOT change it’s being an overhead! Make people learn the match up!
-EX flips cancel into ex Air tatsu and /or ex air fireball (why the hell not). Akuma have it. Why doesn’t a significantly weaker character have it?
-Give Gouken a teleport if we can’t have crouch hitting tatsu and throw immune palm
When I say GF GrAb less recovery, I mean after actually landing it you recover faster.
So, I have to disagree with making counter unbreakable by reversals making Gouken too strong.
As it relates to Akuma and his flip, all three of his flips are attacks. It’s either throw, kick, or armor break punch.
With Gouken, yes, Cammy could not willy nilly reversal, but if she did nothing and we parried we would get thrown or worse. It basically changes from us demon flipping and Cammy 100% winning on a reversal (armor break, beat throw, beat non safe jump dive kick) to 66% win for Cammy 33% win for us. A reversal by Cammy (or anyone really) would lose to parry, but doing nothing (as per usual) would beat the air parry and leave us open for punishing. When Akuma doesn’t throw or kick, he still palms and continues pressure with no fear of being punished for using fist. See the difference?
Reversals have armor break because a Focus Attack is an attack. If I stand over you on a hard knockdown and charge level 3 and you can’t break it, you can only backdash on a perfectly timed FA 3. If you block you get hit, if you jump, you get hit, if you reversal it gets absorbed and you get hit (assuming reversals have no armor break).
If Gouken counters and you do nothing, backdash, or jump… well, nothing happens. The key is that the parry/counter is not an attack.
Your default reaction upon waking up should never be “reversal” cause I have nothing to lose. It beats all his options.
Making his parry/counter immune to reversal break will allow us to open people up more and get damage without requiring the other guy to make a huge mistake. It won’t provide a lockdown on pressure since using either counter or parry opens us up to punishment.
I don’t really need to go into further details as I am sure you see the difference between what Akuma can do and what we would be doing. Boxer and Gouken have no choice on wakeup vs Akuma but to block or take an outrageous risk.
Being subject to Gouken flips on wake up your choice is to get flip thrown (Gouken loses pressure cause of how long throw recovery is, whereas Akuma recovers fast enough for more set ups), reversal and either beat throw/kick but lose to parry, or do nothing and beat parry but lose to throw (lose pressure) or block dive kick so Gouken can continue pressure.