AE 2013 Gouken 'Request List

well, the problem with Gouken is that people have a lot of different ideas on how to improve him.

Yes, many proposed cr mp xx hado buff, but some also disagreed with it - they wanted to keep Gouken unique, and not turn him into another shoto clone.
L Palm having more range was requested by a single person
Kongo - many wanted to change it, but everybody wanted in a different way - either return it to Super, or altering the move farther, etc
Tatsu - well, I added the lock on buff, also making it to hit crouchers is a little bit much I think.

Counter - you didn’t understand the buff - it means it won’t lose to 2 hit normals. It will still lose to armor breakers. Buff proposed by Iamtahtiam.

Kongo: sorry, my mistake, was thinking of somthing else.

CR.MP x HADO will not turn Gouken into a shoto clone, the differences are still significant on all levels. The increased range on LP Rush Punch (CR.LK x LP Ruch Punch) was thought as a replacement if CR.MP x HADO is too much … Maybe better anyway to avoid the shoto clone thingy. Both or one of those would finally provide a reliable tool for Gouken to build up an offense and pressure tactics outside of excellent CR.HK. Imo not too strong as no hitconfirms at all, difficult to open up oppenents, etc blabla

Tatsu: I also believe EX TATSU hit crouchers is a bit much, but still it was the most requested change also here on SRK… Lock on effect would be good, particularly for anti air LK Tatsu

Increased range on backdash was requested by almost half of the people… no one expects Gouken to be Chun though…

There is no need for more damage on Kongo, but a more reliable application for reads. Kongo (+30DMG) x Super would than accumulate to 525 damage!!! The damage is already insane in its current version (495), also all these FADC options in the corner. Not more damage but improved application (two zones and slight dmg/stun decrease)…

Anyway, your list surely adresses some problems, but in the grand scheme they do not provide much for Gouken. Imo wrong priorities! We would not get everything anyway, there need to be clear cut priorites! And seemingly there are only a few directions to buff Gouken:
a, slightly improve offense, defense and application of some options (focused on fundamentals) => my wishfull thinking
a, leave him and just increase overall damage
c, buff the gimmicks

As the Gouken community seemingly can not agree on Gouken buffs either, I kindly ask you to please refrain to post a list in the name of SRK.com. The CapUnity thread surely contains a lot of bullshit, but there were also a lot of well thought out ideas in different directions from several level headed users/players. Let Capcom decide alone on the received feedback. If they take it into consideration anyway and this all was not a big fraud.

The problem with c.mp xx hadou stems mostly from that goukens hadou shines on hit and block, where as the other shotos are all negative on hit and block, we are still positive even on block. Its why lp palm haVing a better range seemed more inLine with the purpose while also helping making Gouken less vulnerable to focus. Anyway the core topic is done and I am really curious to see how they go from here. This could be a very telling time for capcom.

even though that was only a problem for me on like the first week the game came out (remember gouken’s trials in vanilla? yeah, you’ll be pro at FADC ultra since he is one of the few that requires very quick inputs just so the ultra connects), my friends just went back to 3S and GG. my friends don’t EVER FADC to extend combos/make reversals more safe. The game isn’t interesting enough for them to put the time or they just get frustrated with it or both, i don’t know. I only play this game with complete strangers now online and at tourneys and although my friends stopped playing this game for many reasons, that FADC shit was definitely one of them.

I train very hard and play AE a lot but to this day I could not incorporate Focus in my game AT ALL. It’s very frustrating.

Keep working on it, when you get good with focusing it allows you to take advantage of forward dash more.

My list is nothing official, so I’m not gonna post it in the name of srk, it’s mostly a personal project. I’m not trying to impose my views on other characters, I just think this might be the last opportunity to present capcom our most desired changes.
I also fear Capcom might go the usual route - nerf the tops and give some insignificant buffs for the rest - so I’m trying to present them an alternative.

Regarding Gouken: So you agree that Ex Tatsu hitting crouchers is a little bit much. This is what matters to me, and not the fact that most people want it. Afterall, most Ryu player wanted Joudan kick, that doesn’t mean I’ve included this. I’m trying to include some realistic changes that can be implemented.
About cr Mp xx Hado: Souchan is right. Ryu’s Hadouken is -2 on hit/ -6 on block. Gouken’s gohadoken is +6 on hit/ +2 on block.
That’s a big difference. Plus, increasing the hitstun to +4 for cr Mp might also open up new combos for Gouken.

My idea is - I can remove some dmg buffs and include the backdash buff. Or, I can just write for Gouken that gouken mainers disagrees the way gouken should be buffed so I can’t present them a unified list.

If Dan can have a hopping overhead that hits most moves, Bison can have one button defense and offense in standing roundhouse, and Cody and have near invincible Bingo move then Gouken get his tatsu that hits crouchers.

I think people worried that he will get too powerful don’t grasp just how powerful 90% of the cast is. Take Gouken and fight some A level Fei Longs sometimes and tell me then he doesn’t need multiple major buffs.

Mmmm disagreeing is certainly a thing^^ For instance I don’t see a need for either damage buffs or a backdash improvement. Not because it’s good, it’s a horrible backdash, I just feel improving it slightly will barely help any matchups that aren’t already in our favor. I think one thing we might all agree on is more hitstun on c.HP, I think we are all sick of dropping cancels to EX Palm and is something unlikely to destabilize other matchups. It should also ensure our c.HPxx Hadou hits fuerte and Balrog reliably(now if only it could hit crouching Chun and Rose XD ) as well as still connecting at longer ranges(pesudo shoto c.mk xx Hadou, justwithout the range to compensate our incredibly hadou hit/blockstun).

CR.MP x LP HADO
No real new combos due to the pushback of CR.MP. There are some problems attached to it, but these could be solved in a reasonable way. I do not see the problem in HADO being + on hit and block, as CR.MP and HADO pushes the opponent quite out of range. Regarging the feared corner loop; pushback would stop the combo after two cycles (test it with counterhit in traning mode). I would even take 1 frame less hit hitstun of HADO and 1frame more start up of CR.MP to avoid these problems. MSENKU and EX SENKU would only combo on point blank (!) range, which would easen some hit confirm combos after the highly situational close.MP at the cost of damage. take down damage of CR.MP from 70 to 60 fas well. This small combo alone would solidify Gouken without making him overpowered.

Anyway, I can see that several smaller adjustments need to be made to bring it in some kind of balance. Hence, if this is too much, increase the hit box range of LP Rush Punch and decrease the pushback of CR.LK. Making the combo CR.LK x LP Rush Punch (130 dmg; maybe decrease damage by 10) working on most, maybe not absolut max range. This could serve as a replacement for CR.MP x LP HADO during medium ranged ground game and provide a halfway safe (on block -4) offense and pressure tool without follow ups midscreen besides super. But several chars have such a option into super.

Gouken really needs one of these options to hold his ground besides one hit pokes, and giving up space by retreating backwards. He can not rely on his excellent CR.HK alone, easily focused fireballs and gimmicky demon flips during ground and footsie game. Safe jump demon flips are golden on hard knockdown though…

My wish list:

  • one of the above described options, combo CR.MP x LP HADO or increased range on CR.LK x LP Rush Punch (improve ground game fundamentals and offense)
  • improved range of backdash (improve defense options against mix ups)
  • improved OS cr.tech CR.MK (improved defensive options, currently -2 frames on hit and -5 on block!)
  • Kongo, change from three zones (AE) to two zones (Van+Super) and slightly decrease damage and stun. Problem is the unreliability vs. cr. attacks. (improve application of signature move, defense and mix ups)
  • solve the kongo bug (technical adjustement)
  • no other nerfs…

All these tools are already there, nothing really new, but in their current state they are not efficient enough to make Gouken really competitive. The buffs would also not move Gouken to top tier, just a few positions up in the list.

I also wrote a long post on CU with more details and a lot of of optional changes. But in my honest opinion, he only needs the above 4 points, the kongo bug and no nerfs…

what we need most of all is better range on LP Palm, I think. If we were to get one thing, I think it should be that. Because it’s silly that there’s nothing we can do at sweep range, if the opponent can comfortably FA the sweep.

can anyone even entertain us with some ideas and suggestions, if our Cr. HK just gets focus-parried?***

this is why we always see Gouken jumping back from that range against nearly any threat, in match-vids of anyone from Infiltration to Desora to Bullcat and the rest of the great players. There’s just nothing but retreating we can do! Or am I wrong??

it gets worse, because Gouken just retreats and is pushed back to the corner, and then the opponent just plays the game of avoid the lol-EX-Tatsu and attack from all angles to avoid the Kongo - even if you get Kongoed the chances were in your favor and they still are and now you’ve learned something and you still have more options anyway

I’m temped by the idea of getting MUCH better range on LP Palm (ala Deejay LK Sobat-kick), and making all 3-4 Palm versions practically SAFE on block. Then we Goukens would have some say in the playing field. As is, opponents can just stay on the ground and not jump, and FA past fireballs and sweeps. What the f[]ck…

I’m awaiting week 5 so we can send in our final suggestions. I regret my first list and I guess my fireball-idea was kind of silly.

I honestly find it tricky too, though I was better at it in vanilla (for a couple of uninteresting reasons)

another downside to it is that you have to time the SECOND directional-tap to be just before the FA no longer can be cancelled with a dash. “Do it really fast!” is not my cup of tea, yo…

*** neutral jump Heavy Punch? … every character can do that…

I am working a lot with Far.LK - CR.MP x LP HADO poke strings. Works slightly better vs. focus due to the initial fast two hits and pushback, but still no combo damage and easily blocked after the initial 40damage (!). Furhtermore LP HADO is quite unsafe during start up, e.g. Rog’s headbutt in ultra… CR.HK is no offense tool, just gets focused and jumped to easily. But it is indeed an excellent whiff punisher or within some tight frame traps. I would even take slightly more disadvantage (maybe -6 frames? still great!) on block of CR.HK in exchange for the CR.MP x LP HADO option or CR.LK x LP Rush Punch. But this is only my opinion…

The improved range on backdash would surely help vs. mix up and pressure gameplans. Not braindead, because can still be option selected or baited. In my opinion this would particularly help in bad match ups of Gouken, mostly being pressure chars like Yun, Cammy, Sakura, Akuma, etc. with only limited effect on the good match ups. But hey, Gouken is at the bottom of the list anyway… so buff backdash from horrible to average and fine. Would not be a go out of jail card anyway, just a little help, which on the downside also results in lost ground.

I personnally do not have a problem with CR.HP hitstun. Sure the combo is spacing dependent, but there are several replacements for each range with gradual decreasing damage output. All in all I believe it is justified that such a high damage combo is (slightly) spacing dependent and the worst case scenario. i.e. not comboing, rarily happens for me… But I mostly go for standing close HP in punish situations anyway. From close MP - CR.HP it works for 95% for me anyway. After cross ups the combo tends to miss so I go for other options.

You know I see a lot of people going on about how they’re afraid of making Gouken too strong and my question is: why? Why be afraid of having reliable tools? Why be afraid of having easy and sometimes abusable moves? Someone touched on this earlier but Bison having a single button that hits crouchers and stops aerial attacks AND has great range is okay, but Gouken having an ex tatsu that does the same is too much?!

Or Sakura having nearly infinite combos (especially on Gouken) that deals massive amounts of stun, a focus attack that moves her backwards and has nice recovery, a cr hp that hits EVERYTHING and is easy to use, armor breaking overhead that counts as being airborne and combos, but Gouken can’t have a hit confirm that doesn’t require your opponent fucking up miserably without breaking him?!

C’mon man! I don’t think it’s too much to ask for things that most other characters don’t even need to think about missing.

I find it interesting that the nature of the fight is different with Gouken. He can deflect any attack (almost) (Kongo), but it requires to be correctly countered. He can fuck with the opponent’s mind, with the HADOUS. The idea is that he has great zoning but vulnerable up-close game.

The new FA mechanic in SF4 is cool. Some characters don’t, by design, have trouble with Focus Attacks, such as Bison (scissor kicks and psycho crusher), Blanka, Honda, Dan (dan-kicks!), etc.

some characters have 2-hit fireballs, and some characters have a more complicated balance, such as Cammy who usually is the one on the offensive and thus with plenty of offensive tools, a SRK, 2-hit EX Cannon spike etc.

I think the trade-off for Gouken’s lack of SRK shows in his fireballs and damage and 4-frame jumping MP->Tatsu, and back-throw and etc, but he’s not balanced with regard to FA IMO and that’s the biggest problem ATM, if you ask me. I’d prefer to retain our character’s strengths, instead of replicating the strengths of the other characters…

Ok, I took a closer look at Gouken - man, it seems everybody has a different idea how to buff the old guy.
I added the dmg buffs because honestly I really liked Moosh ideas - and he also made a compelling argument. Keeping Gouken unique while rewarding him more is interesting.
But, since he is not my character I can go with the most popular requests (not necesarry the best way, but…):
Aside the changes I’ve already included, the most popular request were:

  • cr MP: combo into Hado - by far the most popular
  • Tatsu - less recovery
  • Backdash
  • Ultra 2: faster start up
  • Kongoshin

Regarding Kongo: one wanted to rework hitboxes; 2 wanted to return to Super; 1 - a 2 zone concept.

So, if you think is better, I can remove the dmg buffs and include these changes.

  • ultra2 start up buff is nice, but more an optional change as u2 is already great. nice to have but not essential
  • same for tatsu recovery, more a cosmetic change, gouken will be punished anyway if fucked up, air tatsu would be a positioning and run away buff, nice to have
  • kongo return to super, rework hitboxes and two zone concept is the same… more or less

as i said there will be problems to decide on the needed buffs and i do not want to impose my opinion to others as well. therefor i propose as main requests:

  • kongo bug (technical)
  • cr.mp x lp hado or cr.lk x lp rush punch as described above (offense)
  • extatstu hit crouchers or kongo two zone concept with a slight damage nerf (reversal)
  • improved range on backdash (defense)
  • no other nerfs

i believe that represents an average of amount of requests and really needed main buffs. otherwise i really believe gouken can already bring the hurt (damage output) if given the chance…

and then there are countless small buffs and ideas adressing other problems…

Ok, that’s fair. Kongo bug is already on the list, I will add cr mp xx hado, kongo 2 zone and better backdash, while reducing the dmg buffs.

but I agree, all Hurricane Kicks should hit low up until Gouken’s knee.

I actually totally agree with that…

I play the old man since vanilla. Patch after patch Gouken has been severely nerfed. So my requests for AE 2k13 are the following:

restore vanilla palm distance.
restore vanilla demon flip overhead.
restore vanilla kongo command.

In other words, RESTORE THE VANILLA FUCKING GOUKEN !

Now, in order to fully differentiate gouken from the other shoto:

-Make LP palm a two-hits move by adding a hit during the dash.

-Suppress palm projectile invincibility.

-Give a one hit absorption during a EX palm.

-Make cr.lk + LP palm a 3 hit combo. Make it safe on block.

Nowaday, our fucking tatsu is the gouken’s special signature. The day you saw a gouken player skyrocketing himself to the sky is an imperishable memory… As a gouken player, i sadly have to live with that forever… At the opposite, I decide to play the old man the day i palmed my opponent to the opposite corner…