AE 2013 Gouken 'Request List

in my honest opinion… ex tatsu hitting crouchers would certainly open up grounded ex tatsu fadc ultra1, which sounds damn strong. coupled with backthrow and the other combos this buff could dramatically change tiers. several other things would need to be nerfed… is this really what we want?

Nope :slight_smile:

Actually I wonder how many hondas would agree to make EX just like Ultra, same invinicbility and recovery. I would actually find the Honda match become very interesting right there, if we also have ex tatsu hitting low.

I gotta agree with Souchan about tatsu.

Tatsu should be better at what it it’s supposed to do. That’s why I suggested what I did about it. (I’ve spammed it enough, not gonna do it again :stuck_out_tongue: )

If kongo was immune to armor breakers as a reversal and against reversal enhancement, I could live with the 3 zones. Otherwise the zones need to be expanded. That change to kongo, plus an ex air tatsu cancel from ex flip, would do a lot of good.

Give us a 4 frame cr.lk and a command st.far.mk and I think we could even out a few of our most horrible matchups.

Change ex fireball to lp+mp = 2 horizontal fbs, lp+hp = what we have now, mp+hp = mp and hp fb. That would improve our midrange zoning.

As for our offense?
Fewer recovery frames on successful flip grab would be great, but overall I think it’s not as high a priority as the other things.
I’d like to see overhead link to a 4frame cr.lk to lp.palm.
And i’d like to see air tatsu have fewer recover frames or a lower height restriction and reduced lower hurtbox.

I agree in the fact that ex tatsu to hit crouchers WILL = nerf city first thing is they will decrease its range an other tatsus will still be wack!

3-4 frame scoop lk tatsu leads to other shit even ultras

It is unrealistic because this requires a lot more balance effort Capcom will care to give to a failed character concept. Look at all the change Capcom gave Gouken so far:

Vanilla to Super:

• Added Ultra 2
• Command Fall dive kick no longer over head

Super to AE:

• Close Standing Hard Punch and Close Standing Hard Kick have more frame advantage.
• Close Standing Medium Kick has 3 frame start up start-up
• Neutral Jump Hard Punch and diagonal Jump Hard Kick have pursuit properties, and will slam opponents into the ground.
• Back throw deal gray damage
• Light Palm has been drastically changed to combo from light jab
• EX Hurricane Kick locks opponent
• Recovery of the Demon Flip Focus decreased
• Kongo Nerfed into three zone
• During backdash, Gouken is now considered airborne right after invincibility ends.

AE to AE 2012

• His Denjin become much faster, and deal more damage
• Vanilla’s LP Palm return as MP, lost HP palm
• Overhead larger hitbox and deals 200 stun
• cr.HP deals more hitstun
• Super come out in 3 frames

If you look at all these changes, you can see that they are all very minor improvement. Except maybe giving us Ultra 2, which every other character had one. Gouken pretty much have never been buffed despite being considered as a low tier character all the way from Vanilla. All the “improvement” are really just “Fixes” mixed with a bunch of nerfing that from completely unnecessary (No more backthrow into Ultra 500 damage. No, this in nerf is not necessary but I can see where they are coming from) to just plain annoying (no overhead on dive kick? Why did they take it all the way to 2012 to nerf Akuma’s palm then? And why three zone parry? Since when have Parry been giving anyone a problem?)

Would you considers Tatus hitting low a “minor” improvement? I would say it is a major improvement, better then all of these changes combed (except the nerfing, of course). This is too much change compare to what Capcom have been willing to do. Therefore, it is unrealistic to expect.

I think rather then trying to get something we probably won’t get, we should get some consensus of what we really want that we will realistically get. Don’t get me wrong, I would LOVE to have Tatus hit low, I think Gouken would be balanced still given the shitty start up time and unreasonably long recovery time, but I seriously doubt we will get it. I rather getting things we can really use rather then not getting anything at all.

I’m sorry folks… Kongo’s not losing to reversals is broken… and does nothing for him from an offensive stand point… It’s only a buffed defensive/guess move… if reversals can’t beat it… I would only knock people down and force them to guess between kongo/back throw/and the occasional late cr. roundhouse to put them back in the same position… most people don’t have invincible armor breakers as well so they’d lose if you happened to frame trap them as well…

But Yet, I’ve seen a lot people for this… but not for a solid offensive reversal that gives away max punish… laughable…

Why do we have to nerf him to give him a good wake up move or a move to stop reversals?? or should we just nerf the 99% of the cast who can do something on wake up to stop stupid shit?

Can’t almost every other character special > FADC Ultra on wake up??? not to mention, the tatsu won’t do the full damage even if we could tatsu > FADC

Isn’t the entire point of re-balancing to address tiers and make the characters better… It’s fucking Gouken for Christ Sake. This ain’t dan… in fact… Gouken can’t even keep Dan off his ass without resorting to lowering his hit box hoping that he does a Dan Kick… i want to sccop that ass… as he rightfully should…

Why is ok for Fei Long have an un-techable command throw with a 2 INVINCIBLE moves, 1 of them SAFE That goes thorugh Fireballs… but for Gouken to have a TECH-ABLE Bacthrow and a tatsu that hits crouchers and beats grabs is OP?? Same for Yun, Same for Seth, Same for Ibuki…

This is contradictory on so many levels… really think bout what you are saying… he needs an all purpose move, but everyone is against it b/c he suddenly becomes good?? lol… Out side of combos, when does anyone rely on the non ex version???

Tatsu has a longer recovery that almost EVERY Ultra… so most of you would rather keep the move, shitty and only used in combo’s… while not allowing him NOT to get off the ground in most situations, and continue to get grabbed without meter… SHIT… only Dhalsim and Fuerte are that bad on wake up and at least they can teleport and run…

I don’t see how allowing Honda’s EX HB go through fireball would be OP… they’d just have to balance it and add some recovery on it if its blocked… all you have to do is jump back when he does it and you get a full punish anyway. Gouken straight up rapes Honda if he’s knocked down epsecially with EX Tatsu owning everything he does… or they could simply give it armor… so 2 hit fireballs would beat it… I’m sure the Honda forum will have their request as well…

If honda is just sitting there… mix up st. mp, with throwing lp hados… he has to resort to jumping to get in and Gouken can beat all of his jump ins clean… Honda is probably one of Gouken’s easiest match ups… the only problem is when he get’s in and starts that bull… you can’t… . well never mind…

POP THAT FOOL!

I think having kongo not losing to STANDING reversals is a good idea… but to have it shut down all of them period??? No one would be able to wake or reversal or crouch tech? you could only grab him or run?

You don’t think we’d be nerfed for that?

You’re asking for the same thing I’m asking for… but you just want it with kongo. And they’ll probably nerf EX Kongo… which means… GREAT… more guess work for Gouken…

Look at our current uses for Tatsu and look at what we can currently use kongo for…

I personally don’t want to see Gouken with a move that would rape everything on the game but a grab… or a armor break which most of them aren’t invincible anyway. We’d be taking almost everybody’s universal way to wake up away… lol…

lk -90 dmg 180 Stun
mk -100 dmg 200 Stun
hk-110 dmg 200 Stun
exk -180 dmg 200 stun

you wan’t to get some body the hell up off you, you tatsu… and if you guess wrong you get your mouth torn off…

How is this any different of any one elses mix up??.. especially those with command grabs…

You want a simple way to fix him… give him a good offensive reversal… … EVERYONE ELSE has one…

We a playing a game where reversals pay off BIG… but Gouken has to wait until somebody throws a attack to take the initiative b/c he loses out if he does anything else???

I don’t see the issue… the abusers will get max punished horrendously… Have you seen the recovery on that move???
If they nerf tatsu damage… so fucking what.

Goukens zone game is good… outside of cr. mp>hado palm and ensuring cr. lk > lp palm hits per lp palm moving forward. What else would we need offensively, defensively, aside from minor recovery adjustments on Air Tatsu and Successful GF Grab Recovery - Successful GF Parry recoveries???..

We can make this list real short… I’m just saying… he’d be good on all fronts… and I would’nt see where he’d be broken… He’d be a good character… as he should be…

He’ss A Fucking BOSS character and you get to grab him outta everything and he whiffs the others… laughable…

Gouken is a FUCKING LEGEND… Fix that Tatsu like I want and lets go…

SAY NO TO Super Street Fighter 4 v. 2013 KONGO EDITION… I’d get Gouken Banned… FAST.

And Another Buff. Add “”"" THERE IS NO USE*** on EX Tatsu.!!! BEAST!!!

This is the BOSS request… Even Vega has an offensive reversal… he can even flip outta damage for christ sake… though punishable… its usable

It’s not invincible, you can hit him out of it, and you can grab him out of it… and you can crouch on his EX without even blocking it at times…

i don’t see the issue now of tatsu fadc to ultra, it can be done now, so why doing it to a crouch opponent would be overpowered??? i have done it so many times that every time i wiff it just think about throwing my stick and yell all kind of bullshit about it… what i see here is a @#$%@# bullshit about a move that should hit low since vanilla, for me it’s a bug just like the kongo one, why if ken can cancel his tatsu we can’t??? why akuma’s ultra 2 got it done (because he’s another of capcom fucking beautiful kids???). if our rush palm is our dp, so give it real dp properties, like more invincibility and hyper on ex, so why can use it like his porpuse is (a fucking horizontally dp) fucking tired of reading that he can be over powered!!! this is bullshit

This Guy Knows…

I just have one question… would it be broken if gouken’s ex parry could not be armor broken? I mean you are spending a meter on it.

That’s a good buff…

I still want a tatsu that owns most moves… I’d take that over any buff

I really wish we had a teleport. Wishful thinking I know I know…

The last few posts by iam and martinez are the truth. As a matter of fact, iam, you have unwittingly copped my argument from Capcom unity about G being a boss and master…

Now, about people not wanting Gouken to move up in tiers or to be really strong on all fronts…it is more unreasonable to sit and accept a situation you find unrighteous than to fight for a result you know is near impossible. In other words, you don’t get what you want by telling people that what you want can’t happen.

Not to mention the ex one is the only one with armor break so a focus will still send him twirling away… You can’t even do that to dp.

I’ll take just 2 changes because I think it will not tip the scales but make Gouken more fun.

Charge fireballs get as large as Denjin Hadoken and ex palm is invincible…give me that I’m good

Hondas ex headbutt passing through projectiles would be seriously overpowered if the move just gains that and loses nothing else (startup, travel time etc).
All shoto matchups save from maybe Akuma will shift quickly in his favour.
I don’t understand why people are advocating that Gouken shouldn’t have a low hitting tatsu. It’s the slowest recovery move in the game, doesn’t start up in 3 frames like dp, and often drops opponent from vacuum (unless it’s ex). I play DeeJay as well and as free as that character is on wakeup (cr.lp/mp meaty pressure), I feel Gouken is worse. 3 zones kongo that gets beaten by armor breakers and throws, tatsu getting beat by everything, bad backdash…
tatsu FADC ultra is doable now on standing people why not crouching. Is this OP? I think not.

so i was playing climaxter yesterday, he was doing some punish and when he fadc an hado and tried to finish the combo he wiffed the tatsu (i’d say probably lag, i don’t know) and i went to the kitchen, made some coffee, had a couple of bagels, saw the weather channel and he was still at the top and then i punish him with the full ultra, full fucking ultra 2!!! but that’s not all, after watching a ken (happy dp masher in the same lobby) doing a forward throw double dash hp shoryu, fall next to the guy on the other side and the opponent still was in the floor, and i was like really!!! I’m not trying to say that i want the same properties here but there are some really lame stuff in the game, like blanka up ball, whose can go away and barely get punished, rose and her soul throw who can scape like nothing happen and she can spam that spiral too, viper who has almost full invincibility on her thunder nuckle (the hp version) or sakura full invincibility on her ex shoryu, or deejay in his fucking kicks, just to name a few… and by wanting a tatsu with throw invincibility(other than ex, a la rose’s whit all hers soul spiral) and hitting crouchers would make him broken??? come on!!! they all say we have the cheapest way to land an ultra with the back throw, right?? how about doing it whit a normal move (like rufus, balrog, ibuki) or special move like a lot of the cast (yes sakura i’m talking about you and your ex full invincibility shoryu) and when can land it too if we have ultra 2, but the only problem is that our rush palm loses to sweep, dp, any other move, ohh and throw too, so we don’t deserve something better because he will seem way too much!!! fuck it, i’m done doing this bullshit

Actually reducing recovery on hit is something I’d be all for.

Light palm and denjin should always be able to get it. Or did you mean rainbow roll?

She doesn’t get away quite that easy, but she is one of our bad matchups so I can imagine intense feelings towards her. Super should be able to punish any non max distance spirals, especially EX

Pretty sure that is full invincibility since they removed its ability to be thrown and gave it to EX Seismo

That thing is 12f startup, MK tatsu is faster :3

Yeah he can get dumb with these, sometimes hard to see the distance that ex tatsu can catch him. That needs to be more reliable. Then again he has issues with many others so I dont know how to fix deejay :frowning:

My feelings are it’ll make him much stronger in the matchups hes already good at without being a noticeable advantage in the bad matches(except maybe Abel, itd probably be help there, but command throws are my big weakness, I might be projecting)

Please dont listen to those people. They are not worth even feeling an itch for

Thats the issue of having a game with 39 characters

I am hesitant in a lot, but if 2013 Gouken is the new AE Yun I’ll still be laughing all the way to the bank.

Untill they ban him :frowning:

I remember that…it was after a stun and I usually would just reset or do cr.mk > hk. tatsu but I wanted to try dj.hp > cl.st.mp > cr.lk > hk. tatsu. I missed the cr.lk link which is a pretty easy link. We were a bit laggy but not like that SFighterlove Cammy player. That was one of those half second delay matches that I just kind of phone in. Truth is I haven’t been playing much so every time I go in, I need like an hour or so just to start getting the feel back. After you left, I started a good streak and went without a loss until I had to sign out. That spamming Ken player (xam77) is a strong competitor of mine that I like to include in lobbies because he’s proficient with a lot of characters and really good with a few of them. He was spamming srks because he knows there’s little for Gouken to do when Ken is close except block/tech and he’s counting on tech…until his srks started getting punished hard.

Anyway, yeah. Tatsu is seriously way too risky as it is right now to be considered a viable move outside of tried and true combos. The damage doesn’t even justify the risk. 185 for hk…less if combo’d into? Psshhh.

I don’t see his palm as a DP move at all. I personally the functionality of his tatsu and palm as a reverse from standard shoto tatsu and dp. Gouken’s tatsu is supposed to be his anti-air and reversal, and palm is his potentially safe way to get through fireballs.

The only change I think they should make to kongo is fix the bug and make it two zones. It doesn’t need to beat reversals imo. If tatsu was worth a shit then you’d have another answer to that anyways. To me, kongo is for punishing predictable play, scaring people into empty jumping (making anti-airs even easier) and blowing up crouch teching. It shouldn’t be a be-all end-all anti-pressure move… that’s what a DP is for. Lol you could do a jump in, true blockstring into cl.mp, then low parry to beat all crouch teching AND dp to get out of frame trap, lol.

If you want palm to be a horizontal dp, it would have to be unsafe or that would just be ridiculously broken. Imagine if lp palm was as invincible as a shoto lp dp, retaining the rest of its properties as is… just throw it out whenever and remain safe lol.

Anyways, i’d like if the lp palm went forward just slightly, or had a bigger hitbox. I feel its one of his only good tools to deal with people easily focusing in.

And on a last side note, IMO I wouldn’t really mention the ‘boss character’ thing as any sort of justification on capcom boards. It makes you sound like a scrub who wants a broken character because of lore, no offense lol.

Gouken won’t be any where near AE Yun or Vanilla Sagat…

Gouken has 1 semi safe move (lp palm) and you got to gimmick the rest of them to make them work. And lp palm has meh range and no invincibility at all…

Kongo is a defensive move… With 3 zones AND it loses to reversals

MP and HP palm and EX Palm loses to everything but frame traps on specifics characters and you can grab him out of it…

His hado is one speed and one hit so you don’t have to fear walking in on him… Hes not going to easily blow you up for focusing…

EX flip on wake is meh (even though I still use it). Not unless someone does something stupid.

Back throw is not a command throw so you can tech it and if someone neutral jumps and he does it, it’s max combo on Gouken…

His back dash it crap.

He can’t jab link to EX Palm… So no jab damage combos…

How does making tatsu a good offensive move negate all this and suddenly make him GOD?

He’d definitely be able to hold his own… Isn’t this what we want??

If he doesn’t get a good offensive reversal, people will still struggle in the same match ups they struggle now…

Giving Gouken more defense isn’t the way to fix him… Aside from EX and doing combos… Tatsu might be the overall worst reversal on the game…

Every character has a way to wake up / reversal with EX as a standard for every match up except us… That’s Bull Shit…

And I get character specific blah blah blah for Gouken…

I don’t care what buffs they give him, if he doesn’t get an offensive reversal… He will be in the same place he is now in he tiers and lose to the same match ups.

He already can’t out poke people up close… And you’d still be able to safe jump him to here to North Korea even if you did make it useful…

Being stuck in down back, and getting grabbed and commanded grabbed in some matchups is something that has really gotten lamer and lamer on each version of SF yet we still havent moved up the tiers like we should… And in none of these updates did they give him a useful offensive reversal…

The only good matchups Gouken has are the ones that he can get away with hado spam… Other than that, if they get in on him… He’s at a disadvantage and can’t to shit but play defense, bc he can’t reversal without losing to something… And most of the time it’s a simple grab.

I’m tired of that shit… You can literally play a tick throw strat against Gouken and he can’t do anything offensively about it, neither can he run or teleport to get away… Thats just dumb… Especially on a game where Everybody can reversal except 1…

Tatsu being good isnt broken, it’s balance according to how the game is now… There’s no reason for that shit to have that recovery and not have a good frontside reward…

Everybody should have a bnb reversal… You can literally grab him outta every reversal… This doesn’t bother you guys?