AE 2013 Gouken 'Request List

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
301

I sense a contradiction here…

This doesn’t solve the full issue, stuff like Dudleys sobats go from -5 to -8 on block, still can be very hard to punish with how far they push back and others(honda headbuts are -8 to -16 :3) share that.

Well the taller they are the more we get access to IA Tatsu shenanigans. Though to be fair, it agitates me much vs Seths and Sagats and I wouldnt mind this.

Recovery should be 4 at best, wouldn’t mind that though. BTW Hyakki Gojin is recovery 4 on all versions :slight_smile: Goheki is 6, but it’s big issue is the pause Gouken makes in the air just before doing it, Gojin wouldn’t hurt to mayybe have that a bit faster too though that might be too good.

Gods no, the move hits high and farther out than any other antiair causing it to grab at distances shoryus could only dream about. While I don’t mind making it better at doing this, making it just hit low would demand Gouken receive heavy nerfs in other areas. It should be better at what it does, not become capable of everything and being poor at it.

Far more interesting a change, might be too good vs the grapplers, they can have issues getting in on us enough as is, but they also can destroy us once they have us. Sign up to unity and list it and motivate it well :slight_smile:

Chun DOES have her issues and deserves her own changes to make her more viable. Thats not our main focus. I dont want Gouken to be fantastic and every other character be meh, this game is far more entertaining the more characters are interesting.

And of course people ask for dumb stuff, but capcom actually has some really competent players on board now besides their experienced staff. Given they might still mess up out of fear of going to far, but i remain hopeful as long as the Gouken topic has all the right changes and properly motivated, people just saying “buff my character, nerf all bad matchups, maybe buff good ones, but not much!” should fall on deaf ears. Hence why though I disagree with most of Takins suggestions I still advised him to at least explain them, the more angles from different mtohds of Gouken properly explaining the character the more capcom might catch on to how great this guy should be :slight_smile:

and besides, we own EX SBK for free all day every day.

302

When you don’t even acknowledge that the other person might have a valid point, and you just post insulting shit like “God, no.” you might as well add…“you childish moron.” I’ve been playing the character just as long as you, maybe longer if you weren’t playing him in April 09. Give others some credit and stop pretending to be all knowing.

On ex flip recovery: EX flip kick/parry/grab recovery should be better than 4 if I am getting thrown/punished every time I whiff one. All I’m really asking for is to land neutral. If they were pressing buttons then they get punished. If not, we reset.

On armor breakers: Yes, it is a contradiction, because I’m tired of being in constant block stun vs armor break moves. I’d like to turn the tables. Gouken should be the boss character he was meant to be. Every boss character in the game is a beast at offense (except Sagat and maybe Claw, who is an asshole anyway). Why is Gouken the only dipshit who just has to guess when he’s on offense, because if your opponent is blocking, you are UNSAFE. Gouken has to plan into his game a spot where he will stop pressing forward in the hope that the other character will press something stupid. None of his strings end safely. It’s total, complete bullshit. One of Gouken’s best moves currently=dash forward and throw.

On tatsu: Firstly, what is the purpose of three partially useless tatsus? Oh, one is faster but not enough to be solid and it drops and does less damage, one whiffs/drops half the cast during your BnB, one sits in the middle with no direction. I am pretty sure most Goukens agree that there is NOTHING wrong with tatsu hitting low if 90% of the rest of the cast have low hitting dp moves…especially when it is slow as shit, easily stuffed and has the worst recovery of any move like it. You say it should be better at what it does? What is that, exactly? To finish a combo off ex palm? It has good horizontal range so…what? Do you use regular tatsu as an anti-air rather than one of Gouken’s much more solid normals? Throw it out in footsies? After giving up on it for a long time, I’ve been trying lk tatsu again lately as an AA (I NEVER use mk tatsu from the ground except on accident). It drops/trades way too much to be used reliably as an anti air…so what good is it? It should get me out of up close pressure, that’s what it should do. Every change to Gouken, in fact, should relieve up close pressure. Gouken should not be so damned weak up close and have so many horrible match ups. They’re playing rock, paper, scissors, and Gouken’s playing rock, paper.

While I’m at it: His lights should be faster for strings and for close resets. Especially cr.lk. His f.st.fp should hit sweeping characters. His kongo should be two zones and never lose to ANY normal, whether it’s two hits, three spaces away, or a stupid instant overhead.

People should fear getting close to Gouken and fear being far from Gouken. Nothing I have said isn’t already in the game in one form or another throughout the cast. If Capcom finds it necessary to take some health to give me better, more effective options, I’ll take it.

303

August '09(PC version got released on steam in Europe) and heck I went to my old fav Chun first. Been awhile, but I might not have gone full Gouken till October so congrats, you win Hipster Gouken award.

Not even empty jump has 0 frames(it’s 4 frames too, but they can be cancelled into normals specials etc, just not dashes or other movement) But Trip guard is active so they can block lows and tech throw attempts(besides the cancels I mentioned). If you press a button though, it’s still 4 frames but the rules change(however you can still tech throws normals, so if they throw you out of Tenmakujin landing, you should always be able to tech) I agree goheki should go from 6 to minimum 4 frame landing but also should descend fast like Akuma Palm, none of that air pause which is the real problem the move has(without it I think even the 6f landing wouldn’t be so bad). Throws should remain at 12f though, though I’d like it to have maybe a reevaluation of the hitbox? If Gojin doesn’t hit overhead, throw needs to punish crouchers better.

Which ones bother you that much? I don’t have a lot of matchups were I just get repeatedly armourbreakered except maybe Guy. Not saying there aren’t a lot of very annoying ones(yun , honda, blanka) that spring to mind, but they can’t get quite so reckless.

Hadou is +on block (That said I really wouldn’t mind palms being improved, either being saferand more projectile invincible or faster/more startup invincible yet unsafer) Also, we have strings?

Oh no doubt, I love this, the look on Giefs face is priceless.

I have very much agreed that they need improvement, but they are far from useless. Sadly backthrow nerf killed one of my fun MK Tatsu applications

Goukens low hitting DP is his palm, he is part of the 70% of the cast that have such moves and I made a point of counting all the non invincible ones as Goukens isn’t or that number would be much lower(and Gouken wouldn’t be part of it) Also Goukens armour breaks too and LP is only -4 on block and the others go from -3 to -6 on spacing.

LK needs to never drop people and couldn’t hurt being faster but works pretty well at 7f. HK is perfect except vs a handful of exceptions(God I hate Adon) it does precisely what it needs to. If they buff the startup slightly it could even replace MK Tatsus old j.MP after backthrow combo as that way it can do more damage than raw HK Tatsu. MK Tatsu sees me almost never use it online as its just too slow. Except vs jumping Chuns(which is a lot of them online -.-) I fit gets a startup buff I would be pleased indeed, not to mention if in Medium DP tradition it was the most suited for AA duties(maybe something like sfxts crush property vs airborne moves). It needs more purpose returned to it.

Tradings with tatsus is one of the best things ever, that is not a downside. It is MKs only purpose as it can reliably trade more than LK(because its so slow, whereas LK will often win, though has a tendency of dropping ryu :frowning: )

Please nothing we do is paper :3 (we kill like rock and die like rock :’( )

Weird decision for such a high placed move, it already has a fantastic hitbox as is. I wouldn’t mind it being faster though. We have sweep for hitting sweepers. Also a fantastic sent to us from gods focus attack.

I have no disagreement there. At minimum(you know if capcom refuses 2 zones which I find more appropiate) lp should beat waist and lower, mp waist and higher, both should lose to aerial moves and HP should beat all aerial moves wether they hit our tippy toes or our chinny chin chin. Or bald spot as thats higher than chin.

To be fair to an extant this should be true for all characters except Sim(and honestly even he has that, the reward doesnt happen till your on top).

304

If Gouken is not going to have a true overhead air counter than I would suggest he is given a command grab with good distance.

Atleast one of tatsumaki kicks need to hit opponents on the ground I suggest the light kick

Charging fireballs is worthless make them larger if charged like Sakura it makes perfect sense

All ex palm strikes go through fireballs cleanly

305

…charge they increase size and gain speed…I like this

306

Sakura, Yun, Rufus, Blanka, Ryu (whoever like to frame trap with EX tatsu) , Boxer (we can’t really punish his armor breaking launch punch reliably), Juri, Abel, E-honda, Dan, Fei Long (first hit of scissor kick is armor break), those all have armor breaking move that are basically safe on block for Gouken. To a lesser extend, Zangief ( EX green hand is armor break), Cammy, Hakkan, T hawk…

If you use parry much at all in those match up you are prone to get armor break all the time since they all have safe armour breaking move against Gouken. Why wouldn’t they spam them? I am not saying those are bad match up or bad situation, I’m just saying that they can shut down your parry game pretty easily since they have move you can’t punish if you block or parry.

Remember, reversal are also armor break. That adds a lot of cases that have safe armor breaking move like Dictator.

307

Sakura was indeed one I wasn’t thinking about, up close that gets really hard on us.
Yun has a good one but can be punished if he does it badly(ex is safe of course).
Rufus has a slew of issues against us and its slow too, I dont mind what he has at all.
Rog can even get dash straight(ex is the only one safe, but you can throw that on reaction) punished on hit by our super, without it he can be annoying for sure with swing blow and ground smash.
Blanka we can punish on block with special and U2.
Ryu costs meter, normal version can’t hit crouching(just one of those moments I feel more inclined with letting our ex tatsu hit crouchers too ^^)
Juri needs to jump and space it very well to be safe. We have an air fireball to stop her if she just tries to abuse it constantly. It would be nice if lp palm had a bigger forward hitbox or moved forward enough to cancel c.MP/LK into it for better whiff punishes.
Abel another one I indeed forgot about, we can punish with s.MP in a lot of situations. But like with Juri it would be nice to have something like that for better punishes at distance. Would help vs Deejay as well.
Honda deserves everything he has against us this is such a bad matchup. Unless point blank standing Fierce beats headbutts free(trades with ex)
Dan we can punish everything that isn’t a LK with super. This is like one of the only things he can even do.
Viper should have been in this list and god she can be annoying. Still enjoy fighting her though :slight_smile:
Feilong only on point blank and at distance we can just react to this. Fei dominates the upclose game and its not just this that does it.
Gief we can punish ex green very easy and punish whiff normal green hands pretty well too.
Cammy has very slow startup on it and cant just toss these out.
Hakan can go die in a fire.
THawk? That one guy who almost has a worse time than Honda against us? and he needs to jump to get it and our u2 can punish it? Why is he here?

So yeah I agree on Sakura, Deejay, Viper, Hakan, Rog and maybe Yun, but thats more the entire matchup that annoys me.

308

Buffs I want for Gouken:

  1. More hit stun on hit on his dive kick so you can actually combo off of it
  2. Better hitbox on his hp.kongo so that when you parry Chun’s instant overhead thing it hits her
  3. Not sure how to fix this but right now st.mp can be easily grabbed if you use it as a frame trap and your opponent mashes stand tech, so fix that.
  4. More hit stun on hit on his cr.mp so you can combo it into fireball
  5. Greatly reduce the startup on lp and mp rush palm so it can be used as an AA. Make lp and mp version of rush palm an AA similar to Sagat’s tiger knee so he can aa from a further range like Sakura and sagat. Basically, I want a better better vertical hitbox on it and make it have invincibility frames on the top so it doesn’t get beat by jump attacks. However, don’t make it invincible to lows so it can’t be used as a reversal.
  6. If Gouken gets that ex fireball buff I think it should cause techable knockdown
  7. Nerf his sweep whiff recovery and make it 24 recovery on sweep so it is the same as Akuma’s. Personally, I think both characters should get 25 recovery frames on their sweep.
  8. Remove Gouken’s fake corner crossups with j.mk and j.lk but this is more of a universal change than just to Gouken.
309

Here are the arguments for my suggestions:

it’s a draft. Tomorrow I will finalize it. booyakasha

310

I enjoy that list, have you added it to unity yet? Only 4 more days :slight_smile:

311

Btw, I think Guy’s run can absorb more than 2 hits, so that buff won’t help the MU. Also, Gouken doesn’t need stun and damage buffs he already does enough of that. He needs better tools to control the mid game space because right now some characters can get in on him way too easily. Another problem is that his air fireballs suck.

312

Dude. Are you intent on being an asshole? Do you skip context and go straight to inflammatory rhetoric because it makes you feel better about yourself somehow? All I stated was that as far as I am concerned you don’t hold the torch on Gouken knowledge, nobody here does. You want to respectfully agree/disagree/comment on my ideas…please do. Plenty of people have in the past and have used actual conversational etiquette to do so and I never felt the need to speak on their presentation. You want to be an out of context, condescending, self-flagellating dickhead…take your comments elsewhere. You don’t spit venomous comments one minute and then put cute little scrotum nose emoticons after your the next brilliant epiphany and think it all goes square. I’m not looking for your validation or your critique if you don’t understand how to hold a two sided, respectful discussion. You seem to think that you know more about Gouken than any other person who posts here. Well, maybe I don’t know everything you know, but I do know that you are an asshole…and that’s all I need to know about you.

313

I think NG’s list sounds good. I personally think at least EX tatsu should hit low. Should be the same trade off as dudley that you get a good reversal that you can fadc if you’re willing to spend 3 bars, or just risk it and let it rip.

I think cr.mp comboing into fireball would be great, almost too good, but then again like people said, he seems to get blown up in mid-range/footsies where other shotos can do cr.mk xx fireball which are often true block strings AND combo to keep people out. Given that gouken is better overall at zoning than most shotos though, I don’t know.

I also like the idea of extending the cl.mk range, or making it a command normal of some sorts. It’s already a 1 frame link from jab to cl.mk, which can only combo into tatsus and mp.palm as far as I recall.

I feel like right now, Gouken is the zoning equivalent of Abel. Great at his niche game, and hits like a truck when he can punish, but no real combos, reversals on the weak side and sub-par mid range game. That being said, I feel like Abel is better currently lol, but hopefully gouken gets some good shit.

314

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/012/3/7/united_goukens_in_colour_by_kaygarin-d5rarf7.png

Don’t do it!!! Lol

315

I knew I shouldn’t have added that, but sometimes I can’t help myself. I do really feel that the idea of low hitting normal tatsu is a really bad idea, even normal shoto tatsus only hit low on ex, where as our equivalent(palm) always hits low characters, just sadly less safe. I really like the design idea of switching then around and find it a real pity if just homogenising the old man to other shotos is the easy they choose.
If they receive a low hitbox and throw invincibility, I feel it’ll hurt our strong matchups much more than aid us in our bad ones. EX alone with the cost of 3 bars when our super is as good as it is now strikes me far more reasonable.

316

I’ve seen many for it, and I’ve seen many against it… Given risk/reward… What’s so OP about tatsu hitting low??

When I compare it to the other tatsu’s… It’s really not a tatsu at all… It’s like a cross between a srk/tatsu…

Now Gouken is supposed to be a boss character, and from a cannon perspective he should have some sort of srk-ish attack… ALL the shotos ultilize a GREAT offensive reversal except him as he has NONE…

His closest comparison Akuma… Has air fireballs, a demon flip with a safe armor breaker (which he can air fireball), 2 hit safe ground attack that moves him forward, command 2-3 hit fireballs, jab combos > whatever he wants, a ground tatsu that beats wake up meaties and grabs, a SRK, and a friggin teleport to boot… and that’s just some of his shit that he does that Gouken can’t from a base perspective… If you knock him down or start pressuring him with grabs, he can teleport, ex tatsu, srk, back dash, or block and tech…

All Gouken can do is ex tatsu (hopefully they don’t crouch), back dash, or block and tech… I’m not even counting ex flip bc it’s not safe at all and is still defensive…

Am I missing something here??? We have the chance to voice our opinions to get a good bnb offensive reversal… Whether is buffing tatsu or buffing palm so we aren’t stuck in down back so much in certain match ups… But a lot of people seem to be against it…

I’m not trying to down anyone’s opinion and I also don’t want Gouken to be a shoto clone… But IMO Tatsu gives a MAX punish away to everybody for a wrong guess… Why shouldnt it scoop people up for doing stupid shit or being overly aggressive?? Especially when we don’t have meter…

For example… I know when I play Seth players, it’s like they smell blood in the water when Gouken doesn’t have meter and they base the entire assault off of Gouken not being able to take initiative… Same for Makotos when they get in close… Abels the same way, Dudley has ways to mix you up for free… Fuerte… Blanka…

My point is Almost everybody has a way of doing it bc they know you have to GUESS to get up or get them off… And at worst grab either beats what you do or the tech poses NO offensive threat from you…

What’s wrong with being able to tatsu the shit out of them to make them think and slow the fuck down… and if you guess wrong them you get blown up just like we do now???

Gouken is the only character on the game you can pretty much grab for free, barring he doesnt have ex tatsu (and we all know how this works)…

Am I missing something here??? Is there a reason I shouldn’t want this??? All signs point to that would instantly make him more solid and his worst match ups a hell of a lot better… You’d have your wake up tool, something to beat tick throws, and people will actually have to think instead of just spamming and at worst grabbing you if dont have meter bc you can’t do anything offensive about it…

I just want to make sure I’m not over looking something…

Thoughts??

317

I haven’t fought any of the suggestions on unity no matter how I disagree with them as eventually it’s capcom that makes the decision and I’d like them to have as large a pool of options and opinions accompanied by their motivations.

Everyone has their way of playing a character and the approach I take sees no use in a low hitting tatsu(except for EX) and would find an invincible low hitting Tatsu a cop out on his design. TO me Gouken is the Master, a swiss army knife of different options(sadly in most forms of the game those options have all been pretty weak but varied, but some have been slowly improving and getting better). If we ever got a tool to aid in our wakeup I would far sooner want it to be done with Palms(Capcom has been really indecisive on them, with all the switching) as their original intent was to be the Horizontal DP. I could imagine them being more invincible on startup to simulate how he dodges to the side before delivering the attack, keeping their slow startup(this would be vulnerable to option selects though) or by boosting the moves overall speed and making it far more unsafe). Even then I’m not sure boosting this one aspect might be the way to go, I kinda like him to be stronger in avoiding the knockdown in the first place and keeping it his weakness but making it that much harder to get there(he could use some serious block and hit advantage improvements to aid that though), still though, this character can be so powerful in some matches I really doubt what to improve to avoid pushing him too far.

That’s why most suggestions I put on unity were about just making stuff function better in their current roles and a little wishlisting on the side.

Poor Honda

318

Lol… Just buff honda so ex head butt goes through fireballs like Blanka… Fixed.

I’m ok with making palm work that way too if it means keeping them the same more-less.

One of the two could use it… I just lean more towards tatsu bc of currently how punishable it is when it’s whiffed or blocked… I think if they add more frame disadvantage to palm to balance… we’d lose some safe set ups with it…

I agree with the notion of just making it harder to get in on him as well… But I’m offensive minded lol…

So its safe to say, most people DO think he needs an offensive out of some sort…

319

I know you are just joking but Honda with EX head butt going through fireball would be majorly OP, it already is nonpunishable for the most part. Deal huge damage. Have invincibility, and come out ultra fast. It also help him close up on any zoning character. Blanka needs it cause Blanka don’t have huge combo and a command throw, but Honda deal massive damage on any jump in, can link into Super from a low jab, and already can shut down mid range fireball. If it can shut down long range fireball as well then Gouken pretty much can’t fight Honda. Anytime Honda have one EX and have charge, you can’t throw fireball at all anywhere on the screen? That match up is literally broken. He can just sit far range. Block a few fireball while charging EX with command throw whiff. Then waits till you throw more fireball and slowly inch forward.

What Gouken really needs (and are not going to get) is a reliable reversal. He is just not going to get it. So why bother asking for it? We might as well ask for Ultra to become like Super and ask for Super to become like Ultra 2, and turn Ultra two into Ultra 1.

Anyway, the point is making realistic request. Parry is broken after nerfing into three zone, desperately need fixing. Totally realistic. Fireball need to be better, totally realistic (Ryu got his damage buff on super, why can’t we?). Let’s ask for those thing other character had got. Tatsu hit low? That is totally changing the entire dynamic of the character and Capcom simply won’t risk it no matter how realistic you make it sounds. So I would suggest don’t bother waste your energy on requesting something like that.

Let’s focus on getting what Gouken need to compete rather then getting what Gouken needs to be top tier.

320

Why is asking for a reliable reversal and a simple hit-box change an unrealistic request? Tatsu is the most unsafe move in the game, doesn’t start up in 3 frames, etc. I mean, shit, nerf the horizontal range if that’s what yall are worried about but I don’t see how making his tatsu worth a shit outside of combos is destroying his character.