What is the consensus on what should be changed? I’m not as skilled nor as knowledgeable as you guys. I’m curious as to what expert Gouken players agree on.
I hope you guys don’t mind but I’ve just done a comparison of the buff request above: Parryable Reversals (Like Dudley)
And compared an EX parry on your opponents wakeup to a Shoryuken on your opponents wakeup.
I thought it would be good to see whether it would be something worth asking for, the ability to stop Fei Long mashing Rekka through block strings really spoke to me, as even if we expect it and bait it, we can’t do anything against it (Except an predictive EX Tatsu, LOL please!)
and then suddenly he’s got frame advantage and momentum again.
Plus its got pretty pictures.
[media=youtube]I hope you guys don’t mind but I’ve just done a comparison of the buff request above: Parryable Reversals (Like Dudley)
And compared an EX parry on your opponents wakeup to a Shoryuken on your opponents wakeup.
I thought it would be good to see whether it would be something worth asking for, the ability to stop Fei Long mashing Rekka through block strings really spoke to me, as even if we expect it and bait it, we can’t do anything against it (Except an predictive EX Tatsu, LOL please!)
and then suddenly he’s got frame advantage and momentum again.
Plus its got pretty pictures.
Why 2 out of 3 to get him???
Offensively either they Reversal:
-Block
-EX Flip
-and lp palm blows up a lot of people meterless
Defensively they crouch tech:
-frame traps blow these up
-low kongo / ex kongo blow these up
if you chain lp… it’s an airtight block string and cr. fp > hado is an air tight block string that pushes you away from the opponent. I dont’ really struggle against Cody or Bison when I’m on offense… and offensively Cody’s only out is his Bingo move which is hella punishable if he guess’ wrong…
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Again… st. cl. mp is +4 on block… their only out is a reversal as normals get beat… even if you cr. fp which is a 6 frame move, you are still at a 2 frame advantage… if they are mashing then just stop your string so you can punish them, or EX Flip in the middle of it to blow them up… I already told you this…
Bison: Ct. St. mp > lp or hp for that mater beats all non EX Reversals… and if you cross him up he loses charge or he has to burn it on the auto-correct… so you safe jump him and force him to do just that.
Same deal with Fei… he has to do Burning Kick without EX… which is a huge gamble for him… for reasons I already told you.
Find anything, anywhere that “I” said that I wouldn’t want that… HOWEVER You still have options NOW that you aren’t even considering or using! I’m trying to inform you… as my issue has never been offensively… my only issue with Gouken has always been that he does not have an offensive reversal that covers all his bases… I would rather have that than an kongo that beats non-armour reversals anyway… you’ll still have the issue people having little fear to grab Gouken whether it beats armor breaking attacks or not.
If i had the choice of getting an offensive reversal (ie dp like move or something that offered invincibility/beats grabs/and I could FADC out of… which they could easily buff tatsu/palm to do so… why would I want a buffed kongo… especially when you have ways to beat the shit that they are doing now…
Now you tell me what you do offensively whens someone’s up in your shit, grabbing you and you have no meter for EX Tatsu (which whiffs most crouchers)… You can’t do shit but run or block and tech… This is the PROBLEM… NOT Gouken getting blown up by reversals b/c you aren’t frame trapping correctly, using bad block strings, and mashing buttons or possibly going for back throw too much.
What you are addressing is fixable and manageable NOW… However, it’s not the bigger issue.
Again you are talking about people mashing…
If you cross up mk and someone can hit you out of your block string when you you didn’t land it low enough… if the follow up attack lands, then it’s business as usual… 1. Know the match up and what the reversal with 2. Look at their meter options and play it accordingly… sometimes making them burn meter, but baiting the reversal is worth it… … but I’ll leave that alone…
and if you want to push out safely use cr. fp > hado or cr. lp strings until you are out of range to zone again… sheesh…
Riddle me this… if some one knows what your block strings are and how to beat them… then why can’t you apply KONGO in the same fashion to blow up strings and crouch techs??? Chances are it gets harder the better they mix you up that’s why… improve your mix up.
I understand what you are saying and what you are asking… YOU need to ask your self this very question…
YOU were talking about mashing (so it WAS relative to what you posted)… we can MASH too… people can do shit when we mash… most of the time by just grabbing Gouken… You are ranting about a kongo that doesn’t lose to non-armor breaking attacks, which is cool… but it doesn’t take away from the REAL issue. If Gouken doesn’t have meter, you’d still be able to grab him for free, and he doesn’t have a SOLID offensive reversal… (not kongo beating non-armour breaking reversals)
If you are going to request something, request something that matters… something that makes him better. My response to you was about MASHING… I didn’t touch on anything else about your post…
Nor was my uncaged comment even geared towards YOU (it was an overall statement that would essentially be reserved for the Capcom Unity boards when they let us post)… but you are playing a very dangerous game… and it could easily be the other way around. Be smart and keep the peace…
They will NOT reinvent the fireball w Gouken…
Dp ain’t happening ever w this character…
Let’s look back to the pre ae2012 thread on requests…this forum did a fair job of prioritizing some wants.
Some changes we didn’t need were loss of Super’s fierce sengkugoshoha that alone w ae2012 dnjin U2 is a zoners delight yet lack of calculating the scope of the characters abilities , we lost a great potential trap/chip etc.
Tatsu and Kongo used to share similar button mapping and inputs…if we could have seen back then b,b>k would reliably give us low kongo maybe we could have kept the 2 kongos as ppp and kkk and found new ways to execute low Kongo w the glitch.
without cl.mp>hado being granted in Ae2012 maybe we could have discovered a ton of counter hit setups as good as cr.lp>cr.lp~cr.hp>… maybe…
Let’s think long and hard… one suggestion per post , a preliminary vote, then discuss then streamline then final vote, then lobby like a muggggggggg!
Ensuring the longevity of this character should be entrusted to the og’s here, super and vanilla goukens from the srk forum the deepest knowledge base on this character period, not gooftecks and company.
A consensus and discussion and finally a vote…
I would like to mention, since we all seen to agree on tatsu vs crouchers, let’s find an ameable application which is not too derpy or op.
As It stands os hk tatsu within poke range has yet to be explored when used in CH setups but is more and more my fave use w it , it is almost fullproof but it’s a gamble due to whiffing.
Let’s give this monster a face…
I feel…ex tatsu is good as yet…
Tatsu hitting crouchers should be multiple parts…and should exclude ex tatsu version…
First a sweeping at the knees the low pop-up into juggle state, this alone would make crouchers weary to start footsies.
Second part followed up with either another lk tatsu for a 2 hit tatsu that pushes opponents across screen and/or retains a pursuit property and subsequent knock down pressure can begin from there.
Third part can finish off the combo with flash appeal and look identical to mk and or hk tatsu versions.
So basically pt 1 scoops opponent into juggle …
pt 2 lifts higher or can be fadc’d into other cool shit like hado resets u2 u1
pt 3 basically the stylish textbook finisher
…so when we say tatsu hits crouchers do we mean any crouching normals and non block crouchers combined ? Do we mean any and all tatsus…or just ex tatsu.
Let’s be definitive with our request for this change , let’s make it mean something…!
heres a slight grip i have with gouken his command dive kick ITS COMPLETE TRASH! all his normals need buffs anyway hopefully this update makes gouken godlike…im preparing my list for next week
final round this week too tag is APPLE SAUCE wish me luck!
Although I’m down w ya in the lab w the new tech etc, I really feel unless we put our deepest wishlist stuff to the side we as an attention starved group could hurt the best sleeper character in the game.
Instead we need to think discuss and vote support our decisions as a community and move forward together.
With this I now ask this forum , can we stand behind this set of ideas?
Show of hands please…
I call for the …Overall improvement of reg tatsus?as opposed to ex tatsu , which is kinda fresh the way we have it now…
Lk tatsu is changed to be a launcher and aims directly at waist and lower on adversaries.
Mk and HK tatsus retain most current traits staying about the same.
Lk tatsu should “scoop” opponents into a 1st juggle state or “pop” opponents into a comboable juggle state, startup should be about 6.5 frames and the new lk tatsu can be subsequently extended by using mk tatsu and lastly hk tatsus respectively.
Lk tatsu>lk tatsu 2 hits w fullscreen pushback OR pursuit property on knockdown.
Lk tatsu>mk tatsu>hk tatsu now possible.
Mk tatsu>hk tatsu now an AA, greater reliability.
Mk and hk tatsu can be used in place of each other following lk tatsu launcher or various fadc reset scenarios following lk tatsu launcher.
Lk tatsu will NOT miss crouchers as it AIMS at opponents waists and lower with a targeted attack designed to lift them into the air.
This approach is overall better in my eyes because if ex tatsu is buffed more by hitting crouchers now , the powers that be could send us to nerf city on the express train and our gameplay could suffer as we may start relying on the chance to hit crouchers which we can’t always be sure about face to face anyhow as they may be blocking then were screwed anyways.
As it stands all shotos and grapplers can be hit while crouch nonblocking vs tatsus.
Let this post begin the debate…
i would probably say something that everybody has already said, but i’ll say it with the reason why i want the fix
1st is the problem with the tatsu not hitting crouchers, last week i was playing a friend of mine and when i’m doing my move (already have 3 bars to it) and when i do ex tatsu to cancel it and keep the not so much pressure the tatsu wiffs because he’s doing crouch tech and i’m like f@#$k, you cannot do a regular tatsu on wake up or any other situation because if they are crouch you fuck your self, people can hit you while the startup of the move or even worse THROW!!! I don’t remeber any other move that has that properties in the game… and the recovery here is the worse, like the other player can have a seat, drink coffee while reading the news paper and gouken still hasn’t recovered from that!!! omg!!!
2nd air tatsu (keeping it with the tatsu) a faster recovery here tooo, how the world you hit someone in the air and you recover almost at the same time they do, like ryu’s, ken’s, akuma’s are ridiculous not to mention their ex it’s so frustrating
3rd the kongo bug, so annoying when you are moving back and fourth waiting on them for something and then they jump in and instead of st hp you get your kongo, so they do an empty jump and punish you like a bad kid…
4th i wouldn’y mind if the rush palm get more invincibility or armor(EX) but i think that can make him way to much (armor)
5th kongo… oohhh lovely kongo, you’re just a guessing game and when you do bad it’s nothing good… what i would like to see with the two top zones is getting wider hit/hurt box because sometimes you get hit with a move like in the face and if you do mp you get counter hit and sometimes if you do hp it get counter hit too, so it’s not consistent…
6th would be a better back dash, either get more space when he back dashes or move faster because he can’t escape the pressure
7th his backthrow either give him the 3 frame back or take away the damage scaling
ON NORMALS NOW
1st i would like to get a command normal for the far st mk, because now that we have a 3 fr move not all the time it can be used because your opponent have to be right there to you, face to face…
2nd more hit stun on cr mp, because he doesn’t have that high/low mixup game, like i’ve seen people when you sweep them and attack they have their free of jail card, dp…so i wouldn’t mind it, even though you can do it on counter hit (cr mp to hado and rush palm) it’s not an everyday use
3rd sometimes i wiff cl st mp and i don’t know why???/ no idea
4th more active frames on st cl hp
and that’s what i remember for now
We need to streamline the shit climaxter…whittle it down breathe and read my post , give ur thoughts pls.
I am a little reluctant to see that change to tatsu’s, not that it isn’t a great idea.
I feel that your making this combo ender / AA tool into what seems to be shoryuken like. Admittedly still not as good as a shoryuken but still.
I know this is a large request by a lot of you and I’m still open but it’s not something I see happening in my opinion, but I’ll support you.
The main things which i like are you’re staying away from EX which has a great many uses at the moment.
By keeping the change solely onto LK.Tatsu your making it not too great, which is good.
This is because, speculatively, it can’t be used as a Tatsu FADC in the same manner as Srk FADCs are used to get out of pressure, very often anyway.
Because I imagine it’ll have no invincibility. On wakeup it might have ‘reversal’ invincibility of a couple of frames.
Turning it into a launcher style move.
Are you saying you ‘pop’ the opponent into the air, and your backfoot stays on the ground (As if you on did the first hit of the current lk.Tatsu)?
and you recover in time to do the mk or hk followup?
Being 6.5 (where’s that .5 coming from?) frame startup, that’s quite a big startup considering srk’s are 3, 4, 5.
What applications can you see it being used in with that startup and lack of invincibility?
The same things he needed last version he still needs this version.
Awesome response Toof! The 6.5 was arbitrary…just really want to keep it low on the radar. 5 seems too fast for us looking at his current move set. I’m good with 6 like sweep.
Launcher style , recovering in time to combo , think Dictators two part kick throw…without the throw.
We seem to want tatsu to hit crouchers, which is a bit vague. Does that mean crouching normals too?
We set lk tatsu to be used in poke range as an offensive staple going after things like fei’s cr lk etc etc on reaction.
It almost could never be intended as a wakeup reversal since it simply will not
have blinding speed.
Making sure it hits that first to fourth row reliably is the best bet since we are looking to mitigate poke pressure I I’m not mistaken.
Gotta get ready for work or I’d post more.
Great start tho, anyone else?
Most important is not too ask for a cure-all since the nerf bug could come back to bite us in the shin sho.
Good to have ur blackness back w us Pillage!
I’m white, and I just wanted to see what was going on in here.
I have 0 faith they will do anything remotely intelligent regarding Gouken.
He can be seriously solid with a few minor changes. No new moves or radical changes.
I like to think ‘your blackness’ was relative to your overall evil presence I feel haha!
That was probably some of the saltiest shit I’ve seen in a long time Reipin hahaha!
Ummmm…why is this addressed to me. I suggested some shit a few days ago and got ignored by almost everyone except iam and Black-Toof. I tried suggesting small changes to normals to improve his footsies game and help him deal with in close pressure. As much as I like the idea, and I do like it, they are not going to turn normal tatsu into a multi part, low-hitting scoop-type move like Dudley’s sweep, there’s too much fuzzy area there in possible outcomes that they probably don’t even want to get into. Might as well go back and like my post about kick button fireballs, too. Have you read the posts at the Capcom site? You can tell who knows what they are talking about (not many), who is wringing their hands dreaming of power, and who is a friggin idiot (I.E. Duh…Make E.Ryu have more health and combo into full ultra 2 from srk fadc…oh and make his links easier…).
You guys all know better than me I guess so I’m staying out of it, even though I have the same amount of time as any other Vanilla G-Man. If the suggestions don’t start with small changes and with clear purpose, they are probably a waste. The more info you can add, like frame data, the better. I’d like to be able to stay inside on an opponent with real viable strings/footsies and not get accused of “running” all the time with my stick and move style.
Give me my 3 frame st.mk with bigger hitbox as a standard move (not space dependent…I hit the button, big fat G Knee comes out) Make back+mk our current normal mk.
Extend f.st.hp hitbox lower
Speed up cr.lk
Fix kongo hitbox, activation delay, overlap
Tatsu hits crouching. Something Capcom probably doesn’t care about: Maybe think about what purpose mk tatsu serves and how we can make it serve a purpose. I don’t use it now except in the air.
End of my contribution unless something else comes to mind.
I’m just trying to begin a more concise discussion so we don’t have a thousand people flood capcom unity without at least some sort of srk consortium verbiage in play…
We will end up with some bs like many of us fear already.
I wanted changes to lpalm not fpalm but we didn’t think it out thoroughly and look now ae12 mpalm sucks balls$!
I figured enough want it to hit crouchers in non block and crouchers using low attacks so I came wit a lil something. If we have too much info they can omit what won’t work,but we have to at least fill in as many gaps as possible for them.
Ill start a new thread$$$
I think he was just addressing you after he read the textwall from mr83martinez and mistook it for you is all.
I actually made a video on a change very similar to that, I just asked for increased cl.st.MK activation range, I even modded in an example to see the repercussions.
(I did state at the end, you could turn it into a command normal but the Hitbox was very good, far.st.MP good. Seemed rediculious without altering it’s hitbox)