You’d be able to infinite in the corner if he could hado after cr. lp b/c there is no push back when you cancel it. I’ve always though he should be able to cr. strong > hado though… if you turn on counter hit, he can do it and at max range it doesn’t combo like it does now. That’s always bugged the shit outta me.
It’s way too much range on that move to have it 3 frames… I guess 4 frames would be a good ask??? but if they were going to change it, I would rather they increase the hit stun so you can combo/link into something off it. +5 on hit??? But that’s just my take on it…
… On a side note, the only way Gouken is going to effectively deal with people just frame trapping the shit out of him and going to grab him up close with no fear of him reversaling is to give him a good offensive reversal. Maybe i’m alone on this… Something as simple as making palms (except lp palm) and tatsu’s immune to throws the first few frames would be a good non-broken buff. You try to throw him b/c you are guessing kongo/normal you get popped… and you still can frame trap him and but they will essentially lose the option to mindlessly tick throw, but still be able to punish the blocked palms and blocked tatsu’s.
but I guess this would make too much sense…
Opponent: (Gouken’s getting up) Does he have meter? NO?? Good, just mix up grabs on him, it’s not like he’s going to reversal or teleport away… lol
Yes to MP and HP(but instead of finish maybe till end of active frames), but no to EX if it has armour.
Game system element this that won’t change nor would I want it too. EX Kongo is fine as it is.
Juri and Dudleys counter lose to armour breakers as well as Cammy and Fei’s Ultra counters. This would be a very weird change.
Like cornbread, ain’t nothing wrong with that.
Just increased recovery would be enough. Getting a full jumpin worth of damage would be a bit too much for someone of Gouken’s output.
Actually. Dudley can parry reversals. (I know it isn’t quite what you said)
That being, non inherently armour breaking specials that are given armour breaking when done on wakeup or 1st free frame after leaving blockstun.
I.e: Shoryukens, Rekkas, Cannon Spikes, Strikes, Spiral Arrows etc…
Although i still agree with your point that, it would be very weird and unnecessary.
It would be very useful for gouken if reversal non-armour breakers didn’t smash his parry. Allowing him to parry retards who are mashing dp at your block strings can’t hurt at all. It would be very good. You could do cl mp to kongo, and that would get people indescriminantly mashing dp at your cl mp frame traps because they know goukens always like to do somethign there. Frame trap or throw or nothing. They dp they beat 2/3. I think this is a very important change for him. It is useful for other reasons.
A use for it, playing a bison who lk scissors you every time you do a move which is negative. You know they are gonna do it, but they reversal the scissor kick from the block stun and it breaks your parry.
Other small things which are not really buffs, but are just inexplicable. It doesn’t make sense why they want these moves to be so bad. Air tatsu could have its recovery reduced on landing a small bit. There’s no reason for him to be that vulnerable. There can still be a bit of recovery, just not the millions of hours of recovery that there is now. It’s not like that buff will make any real difference to him. But there is no reason for the move to be that shit.
Give him some more frame advantage on some of his closer moves. Like +1 on a blocked jab or something like that. It would be nice to have jab jab cr hp without getting snagged by anything the person wants to press at anytime. Maybe make his far light kick +1 on block too? That would give him two nice reliable frame trap setter uppers. The far light kick one isn’t really that necessary I suppose. Atm he needs to rely too much on cl mp which isn’t really that good.
Improve cr hp hitbox a bit. He needs a more reliable go-to anti air. Ex tatsu and kongo are really only useful for some jump ins, not all. Maybe no need for that.
Ex tatsu needs to hit crouchers. If ex tatsu hit croucers, and kongo still kongo’d non-armour breaking but armour breaking due to being reversaled specials, then he would be a much happier in the reversal department.
A nice but perhaps nonsense request would be to have a two hitting normal to do for people who are dashing in. Make far mk two hits? They probably won’t do that though.
I think kongo not being broken by reversal specials which don’t normally break armour is a good and important change. Won’t go anywhere near breaking him, and would remove some nonense, like that listed above.
Flip grab can grab crouchers? Like akuma. Doesn’t seem too bad can be back dashed or reversalled.
Juri = No change to life, Deals no immediate damage. (Unsure on reversals)
Dudley gets that extra little buff of reversals because he losses life immediately, in my opinion.
It’s a risky and gimmicky way to play and I’d prefer to keep my recoverable health.
As for Flip grab, it can grab crouchers already, it makes it a little harder, and if they lower their hitbox even more it makes it very hard indeed.
But then if you’d have done a divekick they’d have gotten a full combo for lowering there.
Although, sure a little less recovery on air tatsu’s would be great. And not much to ask.
That I wouldn’t mind actually, Fei and Cammy’s Ultra counters also ignore reversal armour breakers(fun tidbit, projectile reversals are unable to break armour) and is something that applying to all of Goukens counters might actually be interesting.
I still disagree this is what he needs, though of course it would make him much better, I still feel that’s against his design of trying to get opponents to the corner. His forward dash, forward moving focus(and kara focus dash) s.HK and Horizontal DP’s, Tatsu and Forward throw all really want to put people in corners. This is a change that still could have very adverse effects.
But you know, gimme a Chun Li dash and I’ll never say anything again :3
I don’t think they did at all. Compare it to other real reversals like any dp.
Pros- 1 frame, stops certain safejumps (Not much better than 3 frame dp. Maybe not better at all, equivalent to 3 frame dp say)
- Good damage (Not much better than other dps)
- Good recovery (this is a pretty good thing about it, but it's not really that good. The move is still very punishable. Especially if someone is
sitting right in front of you.
- Sends them spinning. This is very useful for zone time gouken. But has it's disadvantages, if you want to be pressuring someone up close
and do it in a frame trap. Other chars can do some safejump set up or whatever after they frametrap you with their dps. or example they
do frame trap fadc dp in a jab string and get you, and then do a set up or some big damage shit.
Cons - Can be armour broken. This isn’t so bad, on it’s own. Spiral arrows or zonks beating this isn’t so bad. It definitely makes the move worse
however
- Can be armour broken by any reversalled special (other than fb). This is a second con because the consequences are much worse than the first. This is actually very bad. If you combine this with the fact that gouken has very limited frame trap options due to his bad normals it makes the risk/reward for the oponent go heavily in favour of a dp.
We can break down how bad this is:
-Can’t os against any reversalled move using kongo. Can do this with many other dps.
-If you do a blocked cl mp, and for once in your life you have frame advantage with your piece of trash character. You’re gonna wanna do some frame traps/throw mixups. However, if the oponent just mashes dp, this beats all those options. If they mash stand tech it beats both kongo and throw.
For every mix up you can do, you cover one of their options. For every response of theirs, (other than crouch tech, but why would they do that when you have them in that obvious frame trap situation) they cover 2 or more of what you can do. This is not an even situation. Mashing dp whenever a gouken lands a jump in mk is normally a safe thing to do. It can even beat the cl mp before it comes out.
It ends up so that once you finally hit a cl mp, you have to do nothing, to try and get them to stop dp’ing you.
For other characters, getting some frame advantage isn’t the once in a lifetime event it is for gouken, so the risk/reward is not the same for the masher. They would have to do alot of mashing to mash into all frame traps, and it would turn out bad for them.
Where else is it a huge disadvantage? Think bison,fei and balrog. Playing like retards, doing a rekka or a scissor kick or dash punch every time they are put in block stun. You would love to punish that brain dead shit wouldn’t you? "I can see you are mashing like a retard every time I put you in block stun with any move. Yeah it’s too bad all my normals are trash and I can punish the start up of your rekka. But maybe I can reversal you? What are my options? Ex tatsu? Yeah… maybe, but the recovery on that move is the worst in the world, and it might whiff before you get to me. Kongo? Yeah that would be sweet, get that rekka’ing fool. Oooh nooo, the reversalled special broke the thing! This means bison, fei, balrog, probably some others, juri maybe. All they have to do if they want to get in close where you don’t want them is reversal these retard moves after any bit of block stun.
This is bad for gouken who wants to keep you away. This is a real problem with these matchups. Ex tatsu is not a substitute.
If they gave gouken’s kongo the ability to beat these moves, it would be good, it would be great, but not broken. You still need to make a read, and you are still vulnerable to other things.
-Takes time to have a hit box. This means certain things can happen. Bison's properly spaced far mk can set it off and then he's safe. Rose's cr mp spiral arrow is safe against it. so they can do that frame trap with the cr mp, properly spaced. You predict it, do your reversal, the cr mp sets it off, but then she is too far away for the kongo to get her, and then she comes in and gets you. This also means other chars can do the cancel to invincible move thing to set it off and then cause serious damage. Bison's cr mk cancelled to ex headstomp for example. That is alot of damage.
- Can be thrown. That's cool, a reversal that can be thrown. That's so good compared to dps which can't be thrown and can be fadc'd.
- Unreliable anti air. For several reasons. Loses to empty jumps, looses to different hitting jumps because of the hitbox nerf. This pretty much cancels the fact that it is 1 frame and stops reversals. This is very bad. Other reversals are much better in this respect. The 7 frame tatsu is a good aa, but not in all situations, and if it whiffs you are dead.
So what is the move compared to a regular dp? It’s a cool move, but pretty much worthless as something you want to use consistently. Almost Every advantage it has, dps have too. But then it has a huge host of disadvantages too, which make it shit.
The other counters are shit too, but we’re only talking about gouken here.
This change with the reversalled specials not beating it would be really good. it would beat some braindead shit that fei longs do in particular. I’d love to kongo that nonsense. Same goes for bisons. This would not in anyway be broken. It only applies in those few situations. It wouldn’t even be that good. But it would be a useful tool.
Can’t be fadc’d
_ Have to predict if you wanna mash at someone’s block string, if they are gonna do a cr lk or a cr jab. Same goes for when you are using it as a frame trap.
The move is really a piece of trash compared to an fadcable dp. But it is a fun move, and gouken is a fun character. And this buff would not break him. Normal armour breaking moves would still break it. It wouold be fine. We could os it on people’s wakeups and get them mashing, just like millions of other chars have os’s to beat wakeup reversals.
If they gave him this and then also fixed the hitbox, maybe that would be too good. But they could give him just this, and then add a few frames of recovery (not too many!). I dunno about the hitbox change. It was pretty funny when someone empty jumped and you parried, and then they jab and your parry gets it anyway. But I think that people just need to ahve that matchup knowledge. If you are gonna empty jump to bait the parry, do a low.
When you compare it to a dp that can’t be empty jumped at all it’s really not that good at all. Gouken is not anywhere near overpowered, even a nice buff like both the reversal beating, and better hitbox, wouldn’t make him overpowered. It wouldn’t even take him out of bottom 5. He would still be bad vs fei long, and there aren’t really even that many uses for kongo’ing reversalled non-armour breakers.
The uses that are there are things he should really be able to do, to stop other people from playing in a nonsense manner.
If kongo activates, the offending character is hit with electricity like Blanka’s rather than have it space dependent…if a character activates kongo, immediate electric punish…no escaping…no matter where the character is or how fast their attack is.
Well it’s irrelevant to the balance request whether or not the other parries are shit too. They are all shit, and gouken’s one could do with that buff for the reasons given.
I dunno if you can say that. Backdashing is an important part of the game, no matter what your game plan is. It’s definitely important for zoning and you could just as well argue that alot of goukens moves are orient towards zoning people, and keeping them away from him. A back dash is an important part of zoning. You have to be in the right place to aa etc.
For example, rog or fei or akuma are in that close range, and you wanna step back a bit so you can throw some hadoukens. You gotta backdash. Having the worst backdash in the game doesn’t help that, and gouken’s backdash is a big part of why he is such a bad character.
Yeah I guess just make the activation of the smash hitbox instant. I’m not to bothered by the fact that certain moves can make kongo whiff, just one amongst a long list of reasons that it is shit.
I would love to be able to punish reversalled rekkas though.
Yeah I agree… i think… electricity like blanka… what?
Extend the range of Kongo so that toe taps and fuzzy guards get hit. (It’d be nice, but I’m not too bothered, yeah it’s annoying but they kind of read the parry and did something they knew would activate and avoid.)
EDIT
Ahh sorry it was the EX Somersault Skulldiver!
You can’t parry that for some unknown reason, both hit hit you before the parry activates.
Don’t know if this is a Parry or Bison issue, but please fix it.
I shouldn’t be triple punished for kongo’ing correctly.
I meant like as soon as kongo is activated, there’s no “hit”, the other character is just electrocuted…get rid of the space dependent/speed dependent crap.
If some one is mashing, just block or bait the shit out of it with stopping your block string. If they have meters to fadc, then just cbalk that shit up to the game. Or you can ex flip when they have 2 meters and if it they reversal they will whiff and you can max punish on the way down.
St click mp is +4 on block… I would love to see it +5 so you can 2 frame like knowing to lp for an airtight block string but it is what it is.
There is really not too many situations to fear if Gouken has some one grounded, as you can vortex just about everybody.
I agree that it Sucks if someone is mashing and punish you through combo etc, but that happens to everybody who drops combos or non airtight block strings and frame traps. Frame traps are used to bait, mind fuck, and punish accordingly. Air tight strings like cr. Fp > hado are safer but less rewarding if you land it unless you have meter to fadc.
Gouken can also kongo through 1 frame gaps of any block strings… Let’s not forget that… And lp kongo, blows up cr tech, as well as a meaty lp palm and st mp on their wake…
Gouken does suffer against rush down, but there are other ways to buff him and not really “change him” to the point where they will have no choice but to nerf him bc they buffed him so greatly.
Non throwable reversals, tatsu hitting low, better back dash… Are just a few ways to achieve this. The reason why they nerfed kongo was bc it beat ALL cross ups, ambigs didn’t work at all, it beat ALL, AA’s and everybody used it as a AA bc it owned every damn thing… And frankly I got tired of seeing Gouken’s mash it… And especially the ones who’d get their ass molly whopped the entire match and landed a back throw that did 500+ damage to win… That was bullshit and we all know it was. But it felt good and I didn’t care bc everybody else had bullshit too…
Aside from being mindful of mashers… I don’t even really care about srks… In fact if I know knocked them down… I’m hoping that they DO mash, bc I’m going to fuck them up for it.
Mashing is part of the game its not going any where… Learn to embrace the mashers for what they are and what it is…
With that being said… I’m going to be uncaged when they allow people to post their requests for Gouken and like it or not I’m going HAM if I see some dumb shit… We don’t need any nerfs, let’s just round out what we have.
Sorry man, you seem to have completely missed the point I was making. I wasn’t just saying mashing in string is bad. Yes, it’s a part of the game, and you have to be able to bait it out.
But if you read the post, I made two points bout mashing. 1 was mashing in block strings, mashing into goukens frame traps. Mashing into his main frame trap in particular, off cl mp. You know gouken is up to something if he’s doing a cl mp, so you can mash shit into it. You have 2/3 to fuck him. That’s a good chance to get him. Even then, if a gouken lands a jump in that is blocked, what can he do? Say you are cody or bison.
So his options are cl mk to nothing (lp palm is unsafe). Or he can go for his cl mp. If he does that , most of the time he won’t have jumped in deep enough (not talking about divekicking peoples wakeup) and you can mash at like 4 different points in his shit block strings, because he’s a shit character. You can mash out in the start up of the cl mp, or you can still just mash out in the after the mp. Because chances are gouken’s gonna want to do something after finally getting frame advantage.
The whole point of my post was; Yes, mashing is a part of the game. But it is more advantageous, for everyone, to mash against gouken, due to his poor frame advantage in every one of his shit normals.
This doesn’t just apply to close up block strings. This relates to what I said about bison’s fei’s and balrogs.
Allowing kongo to beat non-armour breaking reversals will not greatly improve him. It will just removed such a silly risk/reward rating for mashing after both close and far normals that other chars have when they play against him.
Look it depends on who they are. Mashing at someones safe jump is a bad idea. If they dot hat they are shit, and it’s not them I am talking about. I’m talking about people with a knowledge of where your blockstrings are unsafe. And for gouken, if he is doing something useful, it’s everywhere.
Tell me what you do after you land a cross up mk that is blocked, and I’ll tell you where all the places where it is 2/3 for the person to mash. It shouldn’t be like that. You are putting them under pressure, it should be in your favour. And I’ll tell you where other chars don’t have these problems because they have legit blockstrings.
Be as uncaged as you want man, but try to understand what someone has said before you make a post which purports to address what has been said in that post. Don’t just quote me and say some things which are not relevant to what I said in my post.
Perhaps an easier way to fix that specific example of cl.mp after a j.mk is to extend the blockstun on j.mk.
Everyone who tries frame traps can get potentially mashed on.
Also the area which concerns me is reversals. Since there’s 2 areas to that.
Although I agree, reversals from 1st frame after blockstun would be fine, it would prevent mashing and we’d still have to guess.
(some reversals don’t hit low like cr.techs do.)
Reversals out of wakeup, I’m not sure if that’s too powerful or not.
Meaning we could do an EX Parry on their wakeup and they couldn’t press many buttons.
Their choices would be;
forward or back dash, do nothing,
wakeup armour-breaker,
wakeup special that isn’t offensive (Not immediately - EX Demonflip for example or Karakusa),
throw,
jump,
teleports,
some Ultras.
So I guess they’ve got a lot of choices actually.
Their choices they can’t do,
offensive specials which aren’t armour breaking
normals. (Which seem to fall under mashing punch or kick or cr.tech would be the only reasons to press buttons I can think of.)
And when you compare it, is that any different to someone doing a Shoryuken on your wakeup? except with the added benefit they can FADC theirs? and that it coveres more areas like armour breaking specials, throws, jumps etc.
I’m just speaking outloud here, I’m here for healthy dialogue not arguing or writing people opinions off the board.
Playing devil’s advocate too.
