Toof…thanks for your work. I think your example is great but I would like to see the range extended more for it to activate or just have it the standard kick and they adjust the hitbox fairly (where you were saying it hits really far away at 2.0)and f.st.mk become the command normal. If they made it exactly as you showed it, it’s still whiffing after the two jabs on Gief (character specific) and not activating consistently after CV’s thunder knuckle, so we still get the herp derp, leg in the air, kick me in the nuts mk. I want to know that the move I want is going to come out unless I pressed something wrong. I don’t want to be able to knee somebody half way across the screen, but how about something like Ibuki range (at least, that seems to have really good reach, anyway). The Viper example, when the mk is blocked but interrupts her from keeping her assault up, is exactly the reason I want this. It’s the kind of change that can help keep characters like Viper from just throwing out those safe armor breaking moves until we make a bad guess. I hate that so much and it takes the fun away.
Nevertheless a new thread made for us to vote and move this discussion forward, any interested parties please help
Nice video Black Toof. That’s an interesting and reasonable change.
Very good video man.
Just to say one thing again. I don’t have much time to respond to all posts. But you seem to have gotten the main gist what I was saying. Jab jab jab cr mp, and fei long is already mashing rekka at you, and after the mp he has all the advantage all of a sudden.
Iam I’m afraid you still have not understood what I meant. Sorry if I was not clear. Never did I mean mashing jabs or any normals, always did I mean mashing reversalls. Reversalled dps or reversalled rekkas. Really I think this was clear enough.
When I say bison , fei , and balrog, mashing out of blockstun. I mean mashing out of things like blocked sweeps, blocked far mks, blocked cr mps. This is not really the same as mashing out of a block string. So when you talk about fei bison, and then mention things like their normals and their dp’s and things, it shows you didn’t quite understand me.
So having this will also help our close mid range game agasint these characters, it will mean that our safe sweep will be a bit more useful against characters like that, who can’t just hop on top of you with a reversalled scissor kick, reversalled rekka, or reversalled anything.
Also, I think the buff not really dealing with why kongo is still shit is one of it’s strong points as a request. The move is still a piece of filthy trash compared to a dp. This just helps out in a few situations.
Watch this fei long. He does reversal rekkas here a few times. Once against the gouken. Granted in this situation he gets neutral jumped, and gets badly fucked. But you can’t always neutral jump. I mean it’s just obvious that thhey are gonna be mashing it, but not at all spacings can you neutral jump. The fei long starts doing it vs the ken then. Look at reversal pop out after he blocks a hadouken. First time he punishes kens hadouken, second time ken blocks it. If it were a gouken hadouken we could do an mp kongo there.
And also note this is a good fei long, not an online retard who doesn’t know what he is diong but is just rekkaing in and in and in. Bison’s are worse, as are alot of balrogs.
Also, Look at the armour break after the cl hk frame trap:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2ITapTuHGM
Here he shows you can punish rekkas with a neutral jump after sweep if they reversal it again. But he also has a kongo smashed trying to parry just that. It at least shows he’s well aware of how fei long players play, and that this is something where you are not allowed to parry, and you should be:
I could search a bit more for balrog and bison. Bisons are bad, and maybe balrogs are even worse, because that can do that upward punch you can’t neutral jump, after a sweep I think maybe bisons lk scissors gets you.
…anyone care to submit any of this to a vote? Lol
So the reference to the cl hk frame trap in which Proud incorrectly timed mp Kongo ? Looked to be too early IMO so it was counter hit, he should hav went back to cr lk then confirmed to tatsu following cl hk.
Sometimes I wonder why do I even bother… Please re-read my posts as they pertained to reversals… block/bait/or frame trap them… ** Kongo is not a DP, it wasn’t ever intended to be DP!!!**
I AGREE THAT KONGO WOULD BE OK TO BEAT STANDING REVERSALS… but not the ones on wake up, b/c all everybody will start doing is knock them down and if they have something that doesn’t armor break, they will lose to KONGO… ESPECIALLY EX… b/c if it’s buffed if they wake up with anything aside a grab/armor break they will get popped. I think that’s pretty damn strong… now if you guys feel that it’s ok to have that, that’s your opinion… but they are going to nerf him in another area b/c of that… probably limiting your knock down scenarios… so cr. roundhouse may get nerfed, instead of safe -3 on block… maybe it becomes -6, or better yet, maybe it is made to a 8 frame start up so you lose your Vortex for the balance…
AS far as your example with FEI (not to mention he’s an issue for almost everybody and is possibly getting nerfed)…
example block strings
cl. st. mp > cr. lp beats rekka.
cl. st. mp > cr. lp beats > lp hado beats rekka
cl. st. mp > cr. lp > wait a frame so it doesn’t combo (lp palm will beat or trade with rekka in your favor)
cr. mp > hado beats rekka
st. mp > hado beats reakka
You want Fei to choose between mashing flame kick and EX Chicken Wing (which should be nerfed **as it’s pretty much a 0 risk move whether it hits or get’s blocked for Fei but that’s another story )
Gouken’s sweep is -3 on block… and Fei’s Rekka is GDLK, as they say in the FGC. (lp rekka has a 7 frame start up with a GDLK hit box) So if you naked sweep you only leave yourself with 4 frames to do anything at best… I think Kongo is useful here if it would work, but you could also back dash… If Kongo could beat STANDING Non Armor Reversals then we’d be golden here… But as it stands you can also back dash and avoid the Rekka to get your spacing back, or just stick to using block strings that force him to rely on Flame Kick and EX Chicken Wing.
Kongo is a defensive reversal, we need an offensive one… What’s wrong with buffing Tatsu or possibly adding invincibility frames on Palm to have a good offensive reversal in these situations… or for you go to when people want to spam armor breaks on your and/or just relentlessly grab you if you don’t have EX to EX Tatsu or crouch tech/EX Kongo?
Cr. mp is - 2 on block and it doesn’t combo with hado or palm… (so the request that would make the most sense to me is to allow Gouken to combo cr mp > hado/palm and give it more +frames of block stun so Fei Long Can’t do shit like Rekka after he’s been hit.
far st. mk is -1 on block- Better Frame advantage would be the answer… you’d be be surprised by the difference of making it +2 or +3 on block would be.
Again my biggest fear/concern is that by buffing kongo in that fashion, people are going to Spam it as they did the original kongo and we ended up getting 3 zones for it. And if it’s made to the point to where I can knock you down, and you literally have to run or lose to frame traps if you dont’ have a good armor breaker then Gouken will be too powerful, for anyone without a good reversal with armor (which is almost everybody without EX and the rest of the cast won’t even have a chance to get off the ground b/c kongo will beat their reversal and their crouch tech)… The their only option would be do nothing or back dash,… if they do nothing… it’s Back Throw > God Knows What … Back Dash could be an option but that’s punishable too… If they couldn’t fix it so it was only like that on non-wake up situations, then we’d surely be nerfed in the process… in either damage out put, vortex, or even both…
I know SRK’s work this way and but they also have long recoveries… do we want to add more recovery to kongo as well??
I understand people shouldn’t be able to mash and beat kongo… but if we buff it, it’s going to be too strong in many cases… we’d get nerfed for it… and it still wouldn’t solve what we do to people when they are rushing us down and grabbing so forth and so on… The Seth’s, The Adon’s, The Akumas…
If you want a move to be like DP… then let’s buff palm or tatsu so we’ll have something like that… or at least equivalent to Tiger Upper Cut… That way it covers all of your bases…
Making Kongo rape everything on the game isnt’ the answer…
Leave KONGO ALONE- make Tatsu hit low/lock and work like a Tiger Upper Cut and you now have your DP like move… you can still counter the things you should counter (normals/reversals/supers/ultras/cross ups/jumpins), you can still get grabbed for doing to much kongo, you’ll have your way to get out of sticky situations using 2 EX bars to FADC, you can blow people up for just trying to mash/pressure and grab the shit out of you (ie. Bisons Scissor Flips, Dee Jay sobat)… and if you miss you get blown up.
Again, KONGO is not a DP… it’s a Defensive Attack… Everyone should be making the case to buff Tatsu,Palm to make it DP like… not kongo. And the only reason I don’t stress Palm, b/c if it’s made to be DP like, we will probably lose our frame traps for that as a nerf…
A DP/TU like Tatsu, solves all of this shit… even stops the mindless grabbing when Gouken doesn’t have meter…
Someone tries to mash through a block string, then you’d just tatsu the shit out of them or get waxed for missing it just like DP… BALANCE for the mashing… We can’t mash mindlessly, neither can they…
Look at 1:15… This is an example of why I say 6 or so frames should be shaved off of Goukens GF Grab.
Though there are some things you can do… Gouken’s options are very limited in this situation… and you lose momentum.
Well put friend, I will agree with all points…
So lpalm …should the animation change and look a bit more like a green hand or something? Low hit tatsu is a great alt…
Like wise my gflip happy ass would love the reduced recovery on gflip throw…
Definitely don’t want to lose anything else …sweep vortex etc!!!
I don’t know why lp palm can’t be like a Rekka and still be -4 like it is now… or they can just leave it the same and add hard knock down to it for the reward… Either one would be fine with me.
lp palm ends in zoning (non ex and non corner) and tatsu ends in zoning (and you have 0 frame advantage after it lands… waaaaay too much recovery on block and hit).
Here’s the core of how I feel…
Fix the kongo bug
Fix Palm
-EX Palm fireball invincible during ALL active frames
-lp palm - add slight movement (Rekka) or better hit box… (for example cr. lk > lp palm whiffs A LOT.)
Fix Tatsu
-Low hit box for crouching opponents
-Make it lock on hit (and cause hard knock down if someone falls out)
-Tiger Upper cut like or like Ibukis srk/kick (make it so SRK’s and TU beat it if done at the same time… so maybe 1- 3 frames invincible on normal ones and the EX is 7 frames like now)
Fix the Momentum
-cl. st. mp +5 on block (so you can have a 2 frame airtight block string with cr. lp)
-All Tatsu Less Recovery (especially on air tatsu and a tatsu that has hit the opponent)
-cr. mp > hado combos (turn on counter and try it… make it work just like that) (this will stop mindless focusing)
-cr. mp > palm combos (turn on counter and try it… make it work just like that)
-GF Grab > make it 6 frames of recovery instead of 12
-Less landing frame Recovery on GF Grab Whiff (Vanilla Style)
Fix his low combos
-cr. lk + 5 on hit
-cr. lk > lp palm works and doesn’t whiff as much (hit box on lp palm???)
Far st. mp > +6 on hit (yes you can one frame link to sweep)
Cl. St. MK.
-Make it a command normal (forward and mk)
Command Dive Kick - add more hit/block stun
cl. st. lk- 3 frames and chainable/linkable to lp/lk
Leave ALONE- cr. roundhouse, forward throw, back throw, dj. mk, ct. st. mp, forward dash, hado recovery!!
Ok well there are different situations which are not the same:
-Standard frame trap, of cl mp - Kongo not breaking reversalled specials still puts the risk reward to dp which smashes it in the opponents favour. This is one kind of mashing.
-Standard push back block strings which are not frame traps, and may even end in a - move. THink jab jab jab cr mp. Fei longs or bisons could mash on throught his. I think rekka beats fb in this situation, and ex rekka definitely does. Having a kongo which beat reversals would also mean we could do things like bait out ex scissors, ex rekka, ex dash punch after a cr mp and do mp kong and we would beat them
Note these are two different situations. So in what follows, I’m going to not address where you talk about having frame advantage off of a cl mp, because you don’t seem to be addressing the points I made about risk reward, and just explaining what frame advantage is. If you read my posts, I explicitly referenced having the frame advantage off cl mp, everyone in the world knows gouken has frame advantage off cl mp.
Ok so it’s good that we agree about that. And I don’t really care about kongoing people’s wakeup. But neither do I think it’s as good as you seem to. Alot of other chars can already do delayed dp on a persons wakeup. Gouken can do delayed ex tatsu, and with 7 frames of advantage it will beat alot of things. It’s really not that good. Seth can do it, and does do it, on lots of people. It would simply be easy for gouken to now do these difficult delayed dp on wakeup things that a million other chars can already do anyway.
There is nothign wrong with that. But making kongo just this slight bit better, (especially if it’s only for standing reversals) wouldn’t hurt at all. I agree that not allowing him do it to peoples wakeup would be a very good way to make it a less annoying buff.
I think it would be fun to kongo people’s wakeup dps, and don’t think it would be too good, in fact I think it would be worse than most wakeup dps as Toofs comparison showed. But that’s not an important part of it for me. If it’s possible to get it to just get standing reversals and not wakeup ones, then that would be good too.
That would be an amazing buff for gouken. This would be a million times better than allowing him to kongo peoples wakeup. I would trade that for the kongo buff at any second. I was just making a conservative request for a moderate buff. This buff is crazy good, there’s a reason they didn’t give it to him.
Let’s request that one too.
Yes of course, and again this buff would be a million times better than the minor buff of making kongo beat reversals.
My buff suggestion was around the idea ‘Sure leave him with his trash normals, but allow us to make big reads and then super people with our kongos like all gouken players like to do. Big reads to big damage’.
This more frame advantage for mk is good too. Maybe a bit strange. Most chars don’t have frame advantage off their far normals.
Perhaps you think that is too good, but you are taking a big risk slapping kongo into your block string. If they do nothing it’s a full combo on you. Other characters can do this, seth can do it. Gouken can do it now with ex tatsu.
I don’t think it would be the end of the world. Why do we want to be whiffing kongos anyway? I mean as it stands, they have enough recovery for someone who isn’t shit to punish every time. Against a bad player you might get away with kongoing in their face.
Well I think we understand each other, but I disagree with you on how good you think kongo would be if it beat all reversalled non-armour breakers. But I also agree that we could set it to beat only standing ones. This would still be very good. But it would not be better than dps frame traps block strings and things like that. Have you ever had your ex tatsu beat by a seth’s dp in a frame trap? It’s pretty frustrating I’ll tell ya that. And he can do all sorts of shit with that. Os fadc etc.
This is also a good suggestion. Well I think it’s all out on the table with regard to the kongo and the tatsu balance. I don’t think having both would be too good. Remeber that gouken is not a good character, giving him these things would not massively help those matches where he is already good, like honda guile etc. It would only help him where he is raped or it’s not bad but bad, like fei, you could argue bison some others.
I hear you… .However I do think Gouken is good, he just has a few WTF areas that need to be addressed.
I just want everyone to keep in the pros and the cons of what they want b/c the possible nerfs that are going to come with it… and to make sure that the game is balanced across the board as best as possible.
I think the goal is to keep the core character the same but ask for buffs that will help ups universally, rather than certain match ups…
No salt though… it’s a good thing to dialogue about… I’m just going to be a little cautious b/c I don’t want the wrong things nerfed.
men i couldn’t be more in your side with your post than that, specially with the palm like rekka and adding more frame to the lp (so you can link it with the mp) and the dive kick, i would like to add to you post something too, get the old man a fucking better back dash, kind of like balrog or a little under and less recovery on counter when it’s not activate, so we can throw tech like yun’s command grab when he wiffs it
Thanks.
Our back dash is trash… Yun is bull shit. If he is allowed to keep that, then we should get it too… lol
Blanka can tech his vertical roll too…
FUCK IT > TATSU = SRK lol
Critical problem number one: Kongo is too random
Kongo, is a move that defines Gouken. He is really the only character who build around parrying attack, but it is unusable.
First, it is RANDOM. There are noway to tell which one to use unless you are willing to spend one EX bar. What other opponent use could either needs high, mid, low at any situation. Sometime high is too high for deep jump in, sometime mid is too low for cross up, sometime mid is not high enough for footsies, sometime low is too low for people mashing button on wake up. Even if Gouken guessed right, it is a really minuscules amount of damage compare to the risk he is taking. It also get broken by armor breaking move, and some two hit moves (like Zengif’s green hand) break right through, or some move are just too fast to counter ( like Bison Skull divers. Seriously, it just isn’t a move that is scary. People fighting Gouken isn’t going to be worrying about Parry. It feel random. And they know it. If they get hit by it, they know it is just Gouken getting lucky. It doesn’t get into their head unless you are dominating your opponent completely.
**Fix: Put parry back in two zones like in Vailla. Make high parry always work against air opponent’s attack. Increase the damage output or make it easier to FADC into FULL ULTRA on one of those rare hit. **
Critical problem number two: Gouken can’t do fireball fight like he is supposed to
If there is anything else that is special about Gouken it would be his fireball. He can do anti-air fireball, the only character that really does it as part of their character focus (Juri to a lesser extend I suppose). However, he is the -only- character that have fireball you can pretty much always focus through. Because it will never be a two hit fireball unless you let him charge it up. Since his EX fireball still only hit ground once. Since he have no detergent for people to focus in, he is given a tool to try bait people into focusing his fireball, but it just doesn’t work. Palm is almost completely unsafe on block. So you are forced to put yourself in risk just to try put people off guard. Combine with his below average footsie, In the end, he is in a fundamental disadvantage. Your enemy have better chance to close in on you then you catching them focusing. This lack of two hit fireball is slightly remedy by the ability to hold a fireball and make it’s release timing unpredictable. However having only one speed to work with, still put him into a weird spot where his fireball game just doesn’t feel complete. He can easily outfireball by anyone else who have a two hit fireball, and his palm through fireball are unreliable due to the lack of fireball invulnerability on start up and finish, it keep getting caught in the middle even though it is supposed to be a good anti-fireball move.
**Fix: Give us new EX version of two hit fireball to make focusing into our face or counter fireball more difficult, or make charging into two fireball faster cause right now it is so slow it is never useful unless on knock down. Or let us cancel a fireball like Viper cancels. Or give us a 2 -3 hit fireball like Akuma fireball. Or make palm going through fireball more reliable. Or Make palm slightly more safe. **
I’ve took it upon myself to have a play and mod in some of the requests people have been asking for, for demonstration purposes.
I try to remain legitimate with them so they don’t seem mega crazy.
I made a video showing them off.
- Further Backdash (Slight)
- Untechable Knockdown on Tatsu Drops (Still techable on last Tatsu hits)
- A vacuum effect on 1st Tatsu hits to prevent dropout (Couldn’t do snap like EX <- Still preferable)
- More Projectile invincibility on MP & HP Palm strikes. (+10 either way)
- LP Palm has small movement forward (mini-rekka)
- Command Divekick hitstun / blockstun = to j.MK (Still not viable - needs Y Acceleration increase)
- LK,MK,HK Tatsu hit crouchers, blocking or not. (Misses atacks causing lower hitboxes. Due to Vacuum effect LK Tatsu FADC Ultra1 no longer possible)
- close.st.MK now a command normal on f+MK. (Adjusted hitbox to compensate.
** Can Punish Rekka!!!**
an old saying here on srk is your black until proven otherwise lol.
anyhoo, i also have a wish list but i agree with others that ground tatsu does not hit most crouchers because that’s what his counters are for. he’s a risky character and it’s part of his own balance as a character design. he should do more damage off of counters or they should wall bounce for combo followups. so:
1- go back to high and low counter only! this mid shit is dumb especially with vortex characters.
2-do not give him a link from crouch jab like every motherfucker in the game. increase block stun on close mid MK and MP. increase block stun on c.LP if you’re going to keep this bullshit 5 frame reversal buffer shit in the system.
3-since he’s a shit character when it comes to defense, if FADC on block is staying then he needs a better backdash.
4-EX tatsu doesn’t always catch someone (ie. akuma) if they’re in the air behind you. it’s kinda rare but it happens.
5-to balance the extreme shityness of ground tatsus, make them way more damaging. you have all year to punish it on block or whiff and they have slow startup. i look at them strictly as anti-airs and being part in combos, not really for reversals.
6-cr. MK is the ugliest looking move in the game but gouken walking forward animation looks like pixar worked on it. the fuck? make that shit look a little better.
7-cl. LK is ass and why is there a separate animation for it. it looks hella dumb like he’s leaning back and trying to stop the opponent from kicking you. leave fLK as only LK.
i noticed some people talking about his shitty dive kick and yeah it should stay that way imo since he’s got DF options. i always get away with it if i aim towards their knees or an extreme meaty. what would be nice is if we can dive kick a little early or later like E. Ryu. ever notice he can do this?
Nice video Black Toof. It’s nice to see the changes in action. I pretty much agree with you down the line.
@pootnanies that number four…I thought it was just me…lol :D/
…not rare …at least every ten games or less