agreed with what strider said. i wouldnt have ex wheel kick too if im playin a player of such calibre since i know they know my options and its not that hard to react with a shoryu when they are lookin for that kick… i also learned from experience lol
when I played Air on Friday he reacted to a lk wheel kick with raw ultra so ya :lol: a SRK would have been no issue. Its like Strider said, got fixated on trying to chip him out (basically, I fooled myself into thinking the safest way to win the match was with chip damage when that was definitely not the case). I should have stuck to my original gameplan: stay confident and continuing playing footsies with s.lk
my defense was on point in that match IMO… never got thrown once and blocked the vast majority of the CH setups he tried. I only made some tiny mistakes… I’m going to upload an annotated version of that match to my YouTube channel because I think there is a lot that could be learned from it.
sounds like one of my MMs vs. Mago got recorded. I think it was the first one though, which sucks because I got destroyed. I got a round with a wakeup Breathless but that was it :lol: my later sets were much better but are probably gone forever now.
also I asked JWong, Mago and Daigo all for advice. it was all obvious and I was glad that I already had the same ideas… coming from these guys just makes it that much more important to develop these things specifically. Daigo and Mago in particular spent quite awhile thinking about what they were going to say and gave really in-depth responses and even though it was obvious advice, it was nice to see they considered it so carefully and gave me genuinely thought out suggestions
Mago said - I need to go for more damaging opportunities on my okizeme. this is a common theme throughout all my matches vs. top players. I gave them way too much respect on wakeup. One of the things JWong told me was that I was playing a “coin flip character” and “there is no safe coin flip” so I have to be more willing to just fuckin go for it.
Daigo said - I need to use F+MK better. I was whiffing too many and he also mentioned I was using s.lk too much. Going back to what JWong said, I was playing too carefully by using a 5 frame 40 damage poke instead of going for a 7 frame mixup starter. Daigo is also pretty big on unsafe SRKs… I was able to bait them out successfully quite a few times, but quite a few times I figured “alright there is no way he’ll do it now” and I got caught. one round he did a wakeup lp srk juggle into super & ultra instead of going for fierce SRK FADC ultra… I fucked up by letting him get enough confidence he was willing to throw away a round on something like that
JWong said - the bit about me playing a coin flip character. He said never hit confirm into standing mp, do something else. He mentioned tick right into step kick, or wait and counter-poke with step kick. He recommended I use a c.lp, f+mk option select more often. Unfortunately there are no Rufus players in Western Canada… at all… so I got absolutely DESTROYED every time I played his Rufus. I never even got a round, never even came close, was not a threat at any point of any match.
He said I have to use s.fp as a reactionary anti-air vs. in close dive kicks, and c.mp OS tech. I played him in an Abel mirror too and proved to myself I am capable of mixing up JWong by taking him down to maybe 50 health in 15 seconds (somehow never got a stun…) but then he showed once again why he’s Justin Wong, downloaded me completely, and stormed back to win the set 3-0.
^^
Nice read, some very interesting stuff.
I also agree that you were right not to wheel kick I learnt that the hard way vs Ryan Hart
Figured I’d chime in on “random” DP’s. I kind of abuse this on people that I know I can outplay in neutral game. It’s hard for them to get damage any other way, so they will go for a mix up that can be DP’d. Even if you do hurt them badly, they might just do it again, because they feel comfortable in going back to neutral and finishing the match from there - despite taking huge damage. If they do get it off, both times, it leaves someone mindfucked, then later on they will just back dash/jump away/or wake up with a throw if you can’t back dash DP’s (lol Abel’s back dash).
Of course this doesn’t apply to online scrubs. This kind of thinking only makes sense towards semi finals of a tournament offline (areas may vary).
Hey Sakeido, what’s the c.lp f+mk OS? And does it only apply to Rufus? Did a search in the OS thread and didn’t see it mentioned.
EDIT: Nevermind, found it on youtube => [media=youtube]fITwzXc2gIk[/media]
Don’t have to use the TT
Sounds contrary to the Shiro school of play safe and try to download your opponent. Was Jwong talking about the c.lp, s.mp hit confirm? Wouldn’t c.mp OS tech be too slow against Rufus and everyone else for that matter? Its a 7 frame move and you’re like to get counter hit by your opponent. Thanks for the write up. Lots of interesting advice.
rufus’s dive kick has 11 frames of startup so plus his takeoff frames, so c.mp is just fast enough. I kept messing up the input but I spent a bunch of time practicing it last night… works pretty well. plus, on counter hit you get a free F+MK if he’s still on the ground
vs these guys you can’t always OS tech either. sometimes you have to early stand tech… that’ll throw them out of the startup of their frame traps
he was talking about the c.lk c.lp c.lp s.mp combo. most of the times I landed something on him I just hit confirmed into s.mp instead of ticking into TT or step kick and that is what he was saying I should get away from. of course, he used that combo too, except he would FADC the s.mp, dash in, TT as well. nice surprise maneuver
LOL @ Justin still using that. Definitely stolen from me… :bluu:
I don’t agree with the notion that Abel has to play recklessly. Shiro is the clear antithesis to that, and he’s been the most successful Abel since SF4, so… that definitely contradicts that. Sure, Abel can still be very effective when you make him into a pure guess character, but he definitely doesn’t have to be played that way. There are only a couple of matches in the game, IMO, that require Abel to go random.
As for OST against Rufus, you can do it with Low Strong and Low Fierce. They both work pretty well, but yeah, they both lose to frame traps… but any OST from Abel is gonna be 5+ frames, so frame trapping is always gonna blow up Abel’s OST attempts. You can’t always OST against anybody remotely decent at the game… with any character. SF4’s offense is based on the relationship between throws and frame traps, so defensively speaking, it’s always a decision. You can’t just spam it, and a lot of times, against certain characters, it’s much smarter to just take throws, than to be mashing OST.
if Abel is so high on the tier list, then how come we never seen an abel player on the top 8??
Yeah HAV uses that all the time. It catches just about everyone in our local tournament, except me, I got that gdlk instinct.
HAV, why don’t you just mention EX TT to beat frame traps? I noticed you mixed that in when I was using Rufus against you. That shit is annoying to deal with. At first I thought it was random as shit, but then I realized the only way to counter your OST was the same way to lose to EX TT. So it made sense.
Of course EX TT loses completely to double dive kicks, but with high accuracy on the EX TT, it can cause problems.
I tend to not mention things that require thinking on SRK. That’s like yomi layer 2-3 shit right there.
If I say “EX TT works here”, people will start doing EX TT in really dumb spots. They’re better off figuring that out on their own.
solid reasoning
EX TT works in a lot of places and is entirely player dependent like you say. yomi level 2 and up :lol:
personally I’d rather do a reversal fierce TT, or a strong TT… 99% of the time they will just walk into it. the motion ends in back anyways so if you do it too slow, you just block. unfortunately if they use a jab, you will probably reversal your fierce TT after that because of the big reversal window… but after strongs & the like you are fine
that’s one thing I forgot to do vs Air. I was predicting his throws… and just teching them? if you predict the throw and the risk is acceptable to you, TT it instead
Really? How does that happen?
I though there was a mandatory 4 frame period where you cannot move after landing from a jump attack.
2 frames. That’s why you can’t safe jump Shoto DP, but you can safe jump anything 4 frames and up.
The first frame is the safe jump, the 2nd and 3rd frames are landing recovery, and after that, you’re free to do whatever you want.
If it were 4 frames of recovery, Sagat’s TU would beat all safe jumps too.
would doing TT if you know they are going to tick throw be fairly safe? also when do you use reversal TT? im too scared to do that so just wondering when you feel comfortable doing that
Well, the way I’ve always understood it is that the are 4 frames where you can’t move. The first 2 frames you can’t block (hence the no safe jumping DP’s thing), and the second two frames you can block (but, still can’t move).
I’ll look for a quote somewhere…
http://shoryuken.com/f241/***-misconceptions-sf4-game-system-mechanics-great-read-***-218447/
Hmmm… didn’t know that.
Yeah… looks like EX TT is good enough to escape the OS then.
Isn’t Ryu’s EX DP 3 frames and invincible from frame 1? Won’t it beat 4-frame reversals as an option select?
Also, I’m pretty sure EX TT won’t escape Gief OSes involving SPD (and certainly not ultra). EX TT starts up in 5 frames, Gief spends 3 frames landing, and on the 4th frame he can either block (loses to TT) or do an ungrabbable command throw of his own (should beat TT). It shouldn’t matter whether or not SPD comes out before the first active frame of EX TT, because EX SPD is unthrowable from frame 1 until it’s active (isn’t it?) and EX TT can be thrown. Zangief is essentially perfectly invincible from throws.
If Ryu’s EX DP is also throw invincible from frame 1, shouldn’t this also beat EX TT (or at least, Ryu escapes damage and maybe hits Abel on halfway up)? It will catch all throwable option selects, even 3 frame, but I don’t think DP or EX DP qualifies for that.
The timing is tight but it should be possible because your opponent shouldn’t be able to do anything for 4 landing frames. Stuff like headbutt OS ultra only leaves you exactly 1 frame of leeway. TT takes 5 frames to start up and headbutt OS ultra takes 6 frames. Safe jump (1) landing frames (4) ultra flash (1). If you do it right the ultra won’t even come out. Same with ex dp.