Not likely. Special-special canceling is weird in HDR.
We had a discussion on Sirlin’s forums about R.Hawk’s cancellable whiff into working command grab. Basically, Sirlin verified what I had discovered accidentally way back in HDR: T.Hawk can, in fact, cancel a whiff into his Typhoon so long as the button presses after the whiff still occur within the command grab’s frame window. It’s noticeable too, even offline, if you piano the inputs properly.
I wouldn’t imagine the whiff would be realistically cancellable into other specials since the command input would have to be different. (Anyone with a programmable controller, feel free to verify this.) It may well be the case (and this is purely speculation, mind you) that cancelling his whiff follows rules similar to how cancelling many normals works; it would have to be within the first five frames or so of start-up. This would allow just perfectly for all six possible grabbing frames on a perfect piano if the first input whiffed as well.
One more thing…posting a personal preference as to whether or not O.Hawk from ST is better than HDR Hawk, no matter what your skill level or tournament results are, doesn’t belong in the HDR Hawk strategy thread. Didn’t that precedent get set last year once the Fei thread got remade?
The thing is when I try to get an SPD cancel with my programmable controller, there is none. It’s possible that there’s some key component that’s off, but I can assure you that high frequency pianoing by itself is insufficient.
That’s…odd! Are you attempting it off a standard tick attempt, or during an open wakeup situation? The more you can describe the scenario, the better the chance we could get to the bottom of it.
Off hitting ticks. For example jab -> typhoon.
try off the wake up without ticks. I think thats when I’ve seen it when its happened.
[media=youtube]3TRXaBdcse8&#t=8m05s"]Far standing neutral jab, far crouching short kick, far crouching jab, [, all safe meaty attacks against reversal attacks against a good portion of the cast. The only one of those that directly loses to anything is close crouching jab against reversal throws, but close crouching jab with dragon punch is the mostly useful against Sagat and no one else so there’s no point in going for it unless you have Sagat cornered.
Most of the time [media=youtube]H4UDUkMqhyA&feature=related"[/media] with Hawk you need the safe jump (possible built in dragon punch), hit-confirm low jab, negative edge 360, and then another built in dragon punch or delayed dragon punch. This throw loop is about as difficult execution wise as anything you’ll find in any fighting game but it’s also quite possibly the most satisfying thing to master in all of SFII. N.Ryu, Honda, Boxer, Guile, Cammy, Fei, and Claw, are who to use the full loop on (or a small variation of the loop). Dictator can’t be jumped in on (he’s the only character who can simply jump or even mash out of the throw loop reliably) so you have to use a far meaty that is out of Dictator’s throw range (Lt. Dan showed me this but it’s really hard to do consistently and I’ve seen the Japanese barely use it). Dhalsim just do a jumping attack, one or two standing or crouching light attacks, and then throw. Zangief you use a jumping attack and then mix in your ticks into either throw or bait an SPD and counter with a dive (never bait and counter an SPD with a dragon punch because if you are wrong you will get wrecked). Of course diving on Zangief in ST gets you a knockdown and HDR it gets you nothing direct.
DJ, Ken, O.Shotos, Sagat, O.Sagat, and Chun, they don’t have strong answers for safe meaty into negative edge walking 360. Sagat has specific throw loops that are very, very hard to use. DJ has specific loops as well that start with safe meaty attacks and you can even throw him out of his reversals. With Blanka you can’t safe jump or safe meaty, you just go for an unsafe meaty usually, then negative edge and dragon punch in one motion. Hawk mirrors are entirely guessing games.
And I can already see posts from the HDR camp saying that Hawk in ST was “one dimensional” and that you had to throw loop to win. [media=youtube]fdq8mb1ixjU&#t=52s"]N.Hawk touch of death](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3paw6yMt-I&#t=4m48s"[/media) and [URL=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbzAJ4AUDj8&#t=34s”[/media]. Not to mention that O.Hawk has some of the best normals in the game and N.Hawk has a massive damage super throw.
Might as well throw these in when people are going to start claiming that walking and standing 720s in ST are impossible with Hawk in ST and that HDR was a true step forward for Hawk (and not fifty steps backwards).
[media=youtube]GmU6g8hgCCA&#t=2m40s[/media]
[media=youtube]072k_vdclPE&#t=1m37s[/media]
[media=youtube]rbzAJ4AUDj8&#t=5m06s[/media]
[media=youtube]F0Cy8Gh20Mw[/media]
You think the regular safe jump throw loop is hard? You actually can do a safe far meaty into safe walking 360 with Hawk (not against Honda though if that’s what you meant). Watch more Japanese Hawk play and see that they step forward, negative edge, and then end in defensive crouch off of safe meaty attacks. Sako created the safe meaty into safe walking 360 several years ago but I hadn’t seen anyone use it on anyone but Chun until last year when VIPER basically started rewriting the book on N.Hawk.
Edit: I see some other wrong information in this thread.
I tested R.Hawk’s negative edge 720 with a step sequencer and got a whiff animation every single time. If you do a negative edge 720 on the PS3 version then you should always get a whiff. If you do a 720, negative edge, and get nothing, it means that you failed to 720 properly. So if you tick, negative edge 720 with R.Hawk, and your opponent reverses and you end in defensive crouch…that was not an option select, that was HDR’s new 720 motion causing nothing to come out at all, had your opponent literally done nothing then you wouldn’t have gotten a 720. I tested this quite thoroughly a year ago, so anyone claiming that R.Hawk’s 720 doesn’t whiff needs to program a controller and post their results and methods.
Also I’ve seen R.Hawk’s whiff cancel into another whiff before. The new whiff 360 has supposedly one active frame. But I’ve played offline matches where I can clearly see Hawk’s whiff animation changing into a successful command throw. Only two ways for that to be possible, R.Hawk has more than one active grab frame, or the command throw can be stacked. Again I see this all on the PS3 version so it might be different on the 360.
I’m not sure if you’ve seen me play hawk lately, but I’ve nearly mastered the loop using various normals, most common being neutral standing jab, crouching jab, and crouching short. From what I’ve found so far, only far neutral standing jab is a safe poke on wakeup. It will stuff or whiff on everyones reversal, including blankas. Everything else has been reversaled, or has left me too far for a safe spd attempt, but it’s possible I just haven’t mastered those yet. Sagat is very annoying because of how he bounces in the corner, makes it hard or impossible to get into position on time. Crouching jab option select dp is too risky because if they block, you dp and can be punished easily.
I agree with hawk being the most satisfying character to play. He has boosted my interest in ST significantly. As for characters that can escape the loop midscreen, because of the way they bounce or their reversal properties, I would list fei, cammy, dhalsim, claw, sagat, gief, guile, ken, and blanka. With honda, I get a lot of trades with jump jab option select dp. If they block my jab, I often find that I’m too far away after a low jab to spd. Honda’s grabbable hitbox is far back, very annoying. There’s a very tiny sweetspot that puts u out of range of his grab yet still within range of yours. Very hard to get this consistently.
If you have any insight that could help any of my current difficulties, I’ll try them out this sunday on the dontblowthis stream.
PROMO!! [media=youtube]_5gb8OQEceY[/media]
good info VR4, I play both games so I can appreciate this post.
I can tick 720 the same way in ST as I can in HDR. The last arsenal to finish my ST hawk is the walking 720. Its coming along but the percentage is no where near usable in game yet.
PS. The whiffed 720 should not have a whiff animation. I would like to have someone test this on a macro control as well.
Considering that we just played on GGPO I can safely say that I’ve seen your Hawk. :woot: I know a lot of HDR players think that they know all about ST and Hawk in general, I’ve seen the delusional posts too many times, but there isn’t a Hawk player outside of Japan who is as good as Damdai. If there was a Hawk player in the HDR scene as good as Damdai then he would be very high profile.
I think with Hawk that if you go for far meaty jab against Blanka he can just mash hop and get away cleanly (unless he is cornered). I’ll try to contact Lt.Dan or VIPER or some other Hawk player and see what I can figure out.
It’s not how he bounces that is the problem with Sagat. He has the fastest rising animation from being knocked down in the game and he has one of if not the tallest standing hitbox in the game. Combine those two together and most characters can’t jump fast enough and come down in time to get a safe jump or even a jumping attack that is low to the ground.
It’s also impossibly difficult to execute. I faced a few Japanese Hawk players on GGPO last week and they basically failed every attempt. I’ve never been able to do it three times in a row and even twice in a row is almost miraculous for me.
who are those delusional hawk players?
Anyone who is not damdai or glorious japanese obv.
Also that is just vf4, he makes up opinions of other people and then argues against that as his basis, same as always
I almost fed the troll. silly me.
You should be able to ‘dp install’ on meaty attacks more or less the same way that it works on jump ins. Though you’d have to be a little careful that you don’t ‘kara’ cancel or whiff. Then you’ll only get the dp if they reversal.
Blanka cannot be safe jumped, but his reversals all have poor priority, so IIRC he’s vulnerable to ‘unsafe’ advances with jumping fierce punch.
Also, crouching MK should provide more frame advantage as a meaty attack than crouching lk and recovers just as fast - though it will cause more pushback, and may require more distant spacing to be safe.
I confirmed this to be wrong. If you do the 720 properly on neg edge and the other player jumps or reverses, nothing will come out just like in ST. It will not whiff. 100%
I decided to mess around with Hawk today with both the 720 and the shortcut motion using negative edge (And with the standard button press) and realized this is true. I originally thought 720 would give the whiff animation, but it doesn’t!
This is good news.
Also don’t forget the whiff builds meter.
The whiff building meter is more a gimmick than anything. You never want your opponent to know your building your super like that. I only use it to build super when I’m totally out of options.
I use the whiff all the time. it acts as a taunt and usually gets the other player to come at you, making he’s options limited as he is advancing. “tomo” strategy’s.
ps. thanks aqua, I felt like I was talking crazy pills cuz no one believed me.
Zangief can already do that in ST, so T.Hawk now has that same ability. You have a certain window to press the button to activate an spd. If you press the button and whiff but still have time left in the window, you can press again and still get the spd.
from Sirlin’s forum regarding the “whiff but still command throw them” thing.