Zangief Strategy/Match-up Thread

[duffath]

Playing Zangief online = chase after everyone.

Fixed

[System_1]

Usually though I’ll just walk under him and eat the j.mk if it means iLariat xx EX GH. I’ll do more dmg, take less dmg, and score the knockdown which is good for Gief in all flavors wether its risky cross up on shoto, or bait/punish.

When i walk in to eat a j. mk it usualy combos into a sweep.

[reaper2507]

he meant to walkin and TRADE with lariat the walkin is just that it trades…

to risky in my opinion becouse you could eat a jumpin combo…

[System_1]

Hey guys I posted a link to a quick video with some zangief trickery in zaspacer’s video thread.

If you lariat with Up+PPP or ex banishing with 3239PP those moves will defeat fuerte and akuma’s leaping throws. You’re cancelling the beginning of a jump with a special move to make it unthrowable. Various characters can do it with various moves like supposedly honda can do 632147P for an un-throwable oicho. I don’t know the nitty gritty saw it mentioned on some japanese thread way back in the fall but didn’t pay much attention.

He would just mk to FB all day.

Yeah I don’t use Zangief not sure what the hell I’m doing in this thread but you can EX Bani after blocking the mk there. More general advice I’ve got is to try to find some other Ryus to play (online or whatever) if your friend has your number duke it out with some other cats then come back at him some other time.

[Unreallystic]

Anyone have an answer for this?

Man i can’t beat my buddy’s ryu anymore… he smacked me 10 games in a row. Back then i would bait him to srk me and i would spd him but now he doesn’t do srk anymore. He would just mk to FB all day. We would play footies for a while then he would just jump at me with the mk, most of the time it would hit me if i tried to lariate. And when i knock him down he would quick stand and do straight jump mk… when i try to counter with headbutt he would throw me. When i try splash he would back dash… I play him alot but now it seems like he knows exactly what i am going to do. Its like he’s conditioned me not to do cross ups on his wake up anymore. Now he’s getting brave and goes on the attack and starts pushing ME back into the corner.

Sounds like you trained ‘him’ early on, and thus he’s now ‘training you’ to do what he wants. Its like the two fireball dragon punc thing. It soudns like mroe than anything your doing too much reacting as opposed to thinking. Ryu’s that c.mk poke, bait into EX GH, they almost always try and finish the ‘combo’ with the fireball so as nohoho mentioend just EX it. In general against ‘those’ Ryu’s I try to stay rightoutside of his footsy range, it prevents me from wanting to just jumpin like a dumbass, it allows me to counter anything he does, and actually seems to be one of the safer places to be agaisnt Ryu (mid-range). Granted I haven’t fought tons of ‘great’ Ryus, its just what has worked for me in Ryu/Sagat Mode…squews me - CE.

I wish they showed your loss percetnages by character to character so you could see ‘who you whoop on and who you get whooped on by which character’. I’d put money up that my Gief is like 1-15 against Gief. Is there really nothing mroe to that match up the poking with s.mp/hk?

Fundamental question for you guys. I thougth special move throws had higher priority than ‘normal’ throws. If thats the case, why do I get thrown when I do Xup double knee -> neg edge suplex? I lose ALOT with it these days to people just counter throwing. Is it just a risky move, or am I missing something?

• :bluu:

[Banshee]

I wish they showed your loss percetnages by character to character so you could see ‘who you whoop on and who you get whooped on by which character’. I’d put money up that my Gief is like 1-15 against Gief. Is there really nothing mroe to that match up the poking with s.mp/hk?

If you score a knockdown, you can neutral jump when close and headbutt on wakeup. Beats lariat, throw, and gives good blockstun.

Actually Gief vs Gief is the match where I jump the most. Mostly neutral jump. Even if it’s not necessarily the best tactic, it seems to stir my opponents into trying things, and making mistakes.

Fundamental question for you guys. I thougth special move throws had higher priority than ‘normal’ throws. If thats the case, why do I get thrown when I do Xup double knee -> neg edge suplex? I lose ALOT with it these days to people just counter throwing. Is it just a risky move, or am I missing something?

• :bluu:

I suck at counting frame data, but my guess is this:

jumping knee blockstun (8) - your landing frames (?) - your 360K startup frames (2)

gives them enough time to land a throw. (3 frames? varies depending on the opponent maybe? I dunno for sure)

I never use the knee, I’ll have to test it tonight. Maybe the input for your throw comes out too late?

[reaper2507]

something strange happend to me last day i got THROWN out of my ultra from Ryu …

the framedata says 1+0 frames this means ryu must hafe thrown me BEVORE the ultra start BUT i saw the ultra animation i lookt pretty dumb for sure…

[System_1]

Fundamental question for you guys. I thougth special move throws had higher priority than ‘normal’ throws. If thats the case, why do I get thrown when I do Xup double knee -> neg edge suplex? I lose ALOT with it these days to people just counter throwing. Is it just a risky move, or am I missing something?

• :bluu:

Yea I have that happen to me a lot lately… it seems like when ppl see me do the knee on cross up they would be spaming the lk+lp to throw me out of neg edge suplex. What i think is happening is that i am doing the knee too early and they are getting out block stun b4 i can suplex?? I am going to test this later by doing the knee a little deeper to see if i can still get thrown out.

[JasonL]

Fundamental question for you guys. I thougth special move throws had higher priority than ‘normal’ throws. If thats the case, why do I get thrown when I do Xup double knee -> neg edge suplex? I lose ALOT with it these days to people just counter throwing. Is it just a risky move, or am I missing something?

• :bluu:

If the opponent is throwing you after blocking the knees, on cross up do the knees later on so you get the block stun closer to the ground. If you make them block the cross up closer to the ground. Do it deep enough you can go into block strings with c.jab and c.short. This will train your opponent to stop and block or try a risky reversal like a dp that you can bait and punish. This opens up your throw game. If you do the knees to high though your gonna get thrown/reversal if you try to go into block string so make sure you do the knees as deep as possible.

If you do the knees deep however and immediately throw your throw is gonna whiff because they will still be in block stun so your gonna have to hesitate if your gonna throw them off of deep knees.

I can’t believe it has to be said because this should be Gief basics 101 but if you are gonna tick into a throw, you will always be open to pokes and reversals from moves like dps/flash kicks/balls ect ect ect or the opponent can always simply jump out of it. You need to use block strings and mix up with throwing and baiting reversals to make sure opponents don’t jump, reversal, poke, backdash from your throw game. When people start to jump or throw out of your ticks or use reversals your almost home, because you get the bulk of your damage from punishing people for being so afraid of your spds/suplexes

[System_1]

how about good zoning guiles who throw a sonic boom and wait for a reaction. I’m not close enough to punish the sonic boom or poke him out of a fireball and if I jump in he either air throws or anti-air kicks. If I fadc he trips or throws. bear grab he jumps. anything else I can do?

[Banshee]

how about good zoning guiles who throw a sonic boom and wait for a reaction. I’m not close enough to punish the sonic boom or poke him out of a fireball and if I jump in he either air throws or anti-air kicks. If I fadc he trips or throws. bear grab he jumps. anything else I can do?

I usually alternate between jump with no attack, early jumping MK and far late jumping HP. If you react quickly enough, Guile doesn’t have a lot of frames to retaliate, especially with a jumping throw or attack.

Against Guile though, once you get a knockdown through jump-ins or with EX GH, it’s pretty much GGPO.

Oh, and learn to SPD c.HK on reaction. It’s easy, and lots of average Guile players still use it (Even seasoned Guile users, as far as I can tell by playing in G2). Muscle memory from previous games, I guess.

[crapface]

I use gief and I use Guile. I didn’t realize how much of a pain the ass it was to fight a gief with Guile until I fought 2 back to back the other night. Luckily, they weren’t that great. But against Guile, you just have to walk him to the corner. Also look for the cr.RH. You can tag him with EX Hand after the first hit. It’s a real easy way to get a knock down. Then you can begin the mix up. Guile is terrible against cross ups. And watch his meter for ex booms and flash kicks. No point giving him free damage from across the screen because he threw out an EX boom. I tag people all the time with EX booms just because they don’t don’t react fast enough.

[System_1]

I do the same jump ins but i guess it’s my timing that’s off. Most of the guiles that I play c.HK rarely or they learn not to during the match. Some Guiles manage to get me in a corner because of how well they react on what I do. It feels like I’m playing sim sometimes.

[Banshee]

I use gief and I use Guile. I didn’t realize how much of a pain the ass it was to fight a gief with Guile until I fought 2 back to back the other night. Luckily, they weren’t that great. But against Guile, you just have to walk him to the corner. Also look for the cr.RH. You can tag him with EX Hand after the first hit. It’s a real easy way to get a knock down. Then you can begin the mix up. Guile is terrible against cross ups. And watch his meter for ex booms and flash kicks. No point giving him free damage from across the screen because he threw out an EX boom. I tag people all the time with EX booms just because they don’t don’t react fast enough.

EX hand is good on Guile’s c.RH, but jab SPD works just as well without using meter, which you can keep to EXGH through booms.

The only time I think EXGH is better is if Guile whiffs the first hit on purpose to land a meaty second hit. but if you blocked the first hit, SPD is perfect.

I do the same jump ins but i guess it’s my timing that’s off. Most of the guiles that I play c.HK rarely or they learn not to during the match. Some Guiles manage to get me in a corner because of how well they react on what I do. It feels like I’m playing sim sometimes.

Like Crapface said, walking Guile to the corner (bulldogging) is great. even if you eat a few booms in the face, he’ll get 10x the damage once he’s cornered.

[crapface]

I wouldn’t EX hand too many booms. Guile recovers too fast on them and you’ll almost never catch him based on reaction. You have to get lucky and throw it out just as he’s throwing out his boom. But I find it useful if you see that they’re walking in behind their booms. It’s good to catch them off guard with an EX GH. But don’t try it too often or they’ll look for it and bait it. Then you’ll just get blocked and punished. You can KKK lariat too to get them if they’re following their booms.

[Banshee]

I wouldn’t EX hand too many booms. Guile recovers too fast on them and you’ll almost never catch him based on reaction. You have to get lucky and throw it out just as he’s throwing out his boom. But I find it useful if you see that they’re walking in behind their booms. It’s good to catch them off guard with an EX GH. But don’t try it too often or they’ll look for it and bait it. Then you’ll just get blocked and punished. You can KKK lariat too to get them if they’re following their booms.

Yeah, you’re right. whether it’s to hit Guile during his SB animation, or as they follow up/try to hit after a SB, EXGH has to be psychic, and not on reaction. But, Guile players that want to bait a EXGH will most likely sit back after a SB to block the EXGH, that’s when you mix things up with a jump. There’s a good chance there won’t be any antiair.

[t3h_mAsTarOth]

i just started using gief’s regular throw… the bodyslam if i’m in close enough range then sometimes rather than a hp spd i’ll use it… why? because free cross up or not mix-up… since gief has short jump after the regular throw u can mix-up a cross over & time a jump in 3 different ways…

1. jump in splash with regular jump to cross up or short jump to fake the cross up… if u don’t delay at all then u will not hit them and recover for a spd or ultra… if u delay a little u will hit them a little high… if u walk a little forward and back then u will do a very meaty splash…

2. same with the knees for the first 2 situations… for doing meaty knees u don’t need short jump… if u just delay & do it then u won’t cross up & if u delay, walk a little then do it u will cross up…

3. slight delay & empty normal jump or short jump to mix-up cross up or not & cr.lk or spd or ultra…

and of course theres the whiff green hand or pokes to spd or ultra… which in this case is waay better frame wise…

[reaper2507]

i just started using gief’s regular throw… the bodyslam if i’m in close enough range then sometimes rather than a hp spd i’ll use it… why? because free cross up or not mix-up… since gief has short jump after the regular throw u can mix-up a cross over & time a jump in 3 different ways…

1. jump in splash with regular jump to cross up or short jump to fake the cross up… if u don’t delay at all then u will not hit them and recover for a spd or ultra… if u delay a little u will hit them a little high… if u walk a little forward and back then u will do a very meaty splash…

2. same with the knees for the first 2 situations… for doing meaty knees u don’t need short jump… if u just delay & do it then u won’t cross up & if u delay, walk a little then do it u will cross up…

3. slight delay & empty normal jump or short jump to mix-up cross up or not & cr.lk or spd or ultra…

and of course theres the whiff green hand or pokes to spd or ultra… which in this case is waay better frame wise…

senseless for this situations and even better positioning there is the Atomic Supplex with much more damage and almost one SC meter gain… the startup is faster then every throw and the range the same or a bit betterand his shortjump works here too (ahtlou on his B6B combo)

since it works wonders after those 2 setups i start thinking it was no accident that its in the game for gief…

[t3h_mAsTarOth]

oh i guess atomic suplex is better then the normal throw since it gives u the same options… i just don’t like taking that much chance of the opponent jumping it and turning it into a bear grab… normal throw seems a little safer… plus it looks cooler… but u r right atomic suplex is like his best throw if u know it will connect… i mean so many setups from just one freaken move… too deadly… the opponent should just give up… thank god for short jump… lol…

EDIT: the normal throw seems to be BETTER for SETUPS then the atomic suplex because it leaves u closer… u CAN still do almost all the setups with atomic suplex BUT some things tend to not work so well against certain characters… i wasn’t able to do meaty splash on sagat with atomic suplex BUT i did it with body slam…

[Unreallystic]

I can’t believe it has to be said because this should be Gief basics 101 but if you are gonna tick into a throw, you will always be open to pokes and reversals from moves like dps/flash kicks/balls ect ect ect or the opponent can always simply jump out of it. You need to use block strings and mix up with throwing and baiting reversals to make sure opponents don’t jump, reversal, poke, backdash from your throw game. When people start to jump or throw out of your ticks or use reversals your almost home, because you get the bulk of your damage from punishing people for being so afraid of your spds/suplexes

I get tick throws and understand the concepts of reversals, its just that with online lag and real tight ticks, to see as MANY throw reversals on it even thoguh it should be higher priority is perplexing. More than not I think its just me doing knees too early, I’m accustom to splash timing and only started doing the knees a few weeks ago. ITs a “All these people can’t be that good” type thing…granted the reversal window is ridiculously and annoyingly large in this game.

• :bluu: