IDK, it used to work in HF, before the Sumo Splash was buffed for ST. I’ve tried it myself and haven’t had any luck with a crouching Lariat beating a Sumo Splash. It would be nice to see a vid of this happening. It would help me with my timing.
I think you’re right on this. I was trying to figure out why reversal SPDs don’t work in the corner after a blocked Sumo Splash followed by another SS, but will work out in the open. I think it’s cuz most Hondas don’t attempt a followup SS out in the open, but if they did, I don’t see how a reversal SPD won’t get stuffed. I haven’t seen it happen, but I’m sure the follow up SS will hit, even outside of the corner. Good info. = J
Honda’s roundhouse Sumo Splash seems to have a bit more vulnerable frames so it is easier to SPD after a block stun from it. In my experience, the short and forward versions are harder to SPD. As a result, whenever I see Honda fly high I get ready to block, then take him for a ride lol.
I’m a little iffy on trying to lariat butt slam on the way down after looking at it’s hitbox maybe if they space it wrong or something… I don’t know you guys know more than me otherwise I wouldn’t ask for advice on this lol. If buttslam is like it is in SF4 then it’s probably only -2 on block and those are the punishable ones not short buttslam I know that is safe. I know after the tourney I was told by the honda player that cr. fierce trades with HHS but I just now remembered it after reading evoanon’s post.
Hears another question about the match-up. Lets say that Gief and Honda do there respective command grabs within the same frame & they’re both within each others throw range who would win? Do both throws have any form of throw invincibility from each other or is there some kind of higher priority thing going on?
And thanks for all the help so far you guys I really appreciate it.
If they just happen to do it on the EXACT same frame, then the result is random.
What usually happens, though, is that one of them is coming out of knockdown, hitstun, or blockstun, in which case the defender has one frame in which he can throw the attacker without being throwable himself (a reversal throw).
It’s more of an issue of timing. Basically, you want to crouch and do the lariat as late as you possibly can without getting hit so that the initial vulnerable hitbox on the lariat is above Honda’s heels.
Yeah, Zangief’s blue hitbox would have to be above Honda’s red hitbox. Which means you have to Lariat just before a crouching Zangief gets hit by the SS. For that to work would take some *crazy *good timing. I can’t even get it to trade, yet I used to be able to stuff it in HF using the same technique of a crouching Lariat. If I could at least trade with it, then I’d have some hope that I’m at least close to the correct timing. IDK, I think it would be better to see a video of it (for me personally anyway).
You know I used to believe this but then I was put into doubt by some people here.
This is obviously true for knockdowns and resets where you get a definite reversal frame where you can do stuff to the opponent but teh opponent cant do stuff to you. But I’m not sure anymore for coming out of block or hitstun. The moment you can start doing stuff again (first frame after block/hitstun) is also the frame the opponent can throw you. So in that case if you are being tickthrown and you counterthrow the throws are actiev on the same frame (if some perfectly by both players). Or does the game really give you a frame of invincibility JUST for throws after leaving block/hitstun?
"Reversing Tick Throws
A “tick throw” or “tick” is when the opponent puts you in block stun or hit stun, then throws you immediately afterwards. Some characters have tick throw loops, such as Dhalsim (noogie, Short slide, repeat), and Boxer (throw, walk under cross-up meaty cr.Forward, repeat).
These are very effective techniques because the defender only has one frame of advantage. Timing anything with the precision of one frame is pretty difficult. The frame in question is the reversal frame, your first frame of neutral state. The defender can go directly into any attack (a normal move, a throw, a special move, or a super) without ever going to neutral (throwable) state. However, if the defender does not take advantage of the reversal, the attacker and the defender have equal opportunity to throw each other. (If both characters throw on the exact same frame, it is completely random who does the throw and who gets thrown.)
Because you can reverse out of hit stun and block stun, there is no reason to ever just “take the hit” on a tick attempt. Either way, you still only have one frame to reverse.
If the attacker tries to tick throw you but he is within your throw range, you can throw him for free because of that reversal frame."
It sounds like they’re saying the first frame after hit/blockstun is invincible to throws, just like after a knockdown. But I have a hard time believing that. I don’t have any concrete evidence to prove otherwise, but my senses and my experience tells me that the first frame after hit/blockstun is not invincible to throws. Why would it be? It doesn’t make sense.
I’m pretty good with reversal throws after knockdowns or resets, and I almost always get the throw, but after hit/blockstun, it’s a tossup as to who will win the throw, especially if my opponent is good at timing the tick throw right after blockstun ends. Again, I’m just speaking from experience, I could be wrong, and it would be nice to get a definitive answer to this question.
Considering that block and hitstun have throw invulnerability, it’s not such a huge stretch to think that it’s going to extend one extra frame. A possible alternative mechanism is that during the reversal frame, the player coming out of block or hitstun ‘goes first’ - that is to say - wins double hits or throws. I’m not sure what a good way to test that hypothesis would be.
It takes at least 9 frames to come out, but , you could also do neutral jump strong or fierce, or diagonal jump strong for the upward hitbox. I’m not sure about the command neutral jumping fierce right now. (I haven’t gotten around to putting the numbers in, but each of those has 2 frames of start-up, and 3 upward hitting frames, and Zangief’s jump start-up is IIRC 7 frames, so it’s got to be early to work.)
Couldn’t someone test that out by using some kind of debug mode for ST on like mame or whatever? Play the game frame by frame and see what happens when you try to throw someone on the reversal frame after hit/blockstun. Either they are throw invincible, there is some special priority tag for reversal throws, or it is 50/50 who gets thrown.
alright, i’ve run into a couple of vegas i just can’t beat with zang. the aerial is the toughest part to get through. a jumping strong gets you a knockdown, but then what? is there anything that stuffs the flip kick?
his backwards somersault can get him out of anything since it charges the flip kick and is invincible.
Try baiting the flip kick and SPD him on landing. Or if you anticipate a back summersault thing that gets him of danger, walk into it and throw him when he completes the flip Although that is pretty risky if he does something other than the reverse flip… =P
In my experience, the problem is more that Vega gets up quickly.
That said, the flip kick has holes at the bottom front, and right on top. If you poke with a max range late crouching roundhouse, and Vega does any of the offensive flips, then he should miss, and fall right into your waiting arms.
Similarly, if you cross him up with the splash or one of the knee drops, he should miss you with the flip kick and you’re likely to catch him on the way down.
so how many frames are there to grab him after the flip kick? the couple of vegas i’ve run into could flip kick and then somersault away and i get the spd whiff animation. i know you can low rh and he lands on it, but i’d much rather have the spd. it seems like vega can somersault away much like honda can continuously swan/ass slam…
i looked it up and the landing frames are 5/7/9 for each respective kick. that seems like plenty of time to grab. are you guys starting the motion before he lands?
also, i’ve been nailed with the flip kick trying to crossup splash. will try the knee next time.
another question. anyone with a ps3, can you go and see if you can get a spd whiff animation from low short. my ps3 is getting fixed right now and i can’t find out for myself. got an xbox sunday and have been whiffing the spd here and there and in training mode but i can’t remember the last time i whiffed on my ps3. i know there are people who say that there isn’t a difference between the consoles, but it does feel different. feels like there are more blocking frames on xbox.
Hardest part against Vega is that it always seem laggy. I hardly ever get a decent connection without lag…With that said, fighting vega aerials is just trying to guess right. If you think he’s going to go for the grab use the lariat, if not use crouch fierce punch. Some vegas like to bait by not connecting with the grab or the claw which they try to sweep you right afterwords…Some Vegas like to do the money spot where they can hit you with the claw just right being safe, that’s when you use the jumping strong away.
Then there are the turtle Vegas, where they try to just claw you from a distant…Best thing to do here is mix up your punch/kick lariat as they will try to sweep you when you get to close. When you anticipate a sweep, use your roundhouse sweep which beats him most of the time, if not it trades in your favor. Your lariat will beat his claw.
Once Vega is knocked down, most Vega will be charging for the flip kick, just walk up & block…Then SPD, next time tick SPD, just mix it up & you will have the flamer dazed & confused.(Same strat against Guile/Deejay) Then there are the safe Vega’s which like to flip away, if they do that on the first time you get a knockdown, there’s a good chance he will do that through out the match. This is like Blanka’s back dash, what you want to do is get close enough & then do the hop followed with a roundhouse sweep. The hop to SPD doesn’t seem to work to well against flipping away Vega, compared to dashing back Blanka which works great.
I would not recommend jumping at Vega at all throughout the match, Vega’s normals are too good. Just stand your ground using lariat/sweeps…The only time i would recommend jumping at Vega is when you anticipate his sliding sweep, just do a jumping fierce splash into roundhouse sweep. Does good damage.
the jumping strong away i need to try. but overall, there are only a couple of vegas i’ve run into that i can’t beat which have “all of the above” as their arsenal. my problem is baiting the flip kick properly, because i can get them to flip kick, but i must be misstiming the spd because i get the whiff animation as they safely somersault away after i’ve blocked the flip kick.
basically, if you walk up, they flip kick and you block, is the spd 100%? because if it is 100% then it’s just my timing is off and i need to work on it. but is there anyone here who believes that it isn’t 100%?
Jumping when Vega slides is kind of unnecessary when Gief’s crouching hk(prediction move) beats the slide completely and gets you the knockdown. This matchup is painful against someone who knows what they are doing though… usually they are not stupid enough to slide at you constantly, they just use well spaced wall dives.
The only attack the can knock Vega out of the air is Giefs Jumping hp. Other than that the rest of his normals dont have enough priority to beat Vega’s options.
Walk up SPD is necessary in this matchup imo(spacing these without being obvious has always been hard for me though)… especially the ones that like to turtle up. Its not his worse matchup but pretty bad… a good E. Honda is impossible:sad:
BullDancer: A Jumping MP (Strong) well timed/placed can beat Vega’s wall dives/attacks. Also a well placed crouching fierce can also hit him out of the air when coming down from a wall dive :). Lariats can also knock him out of the air if he misplaces his wall dive.
Sorry im going to have to disagree with everything you wrote…
If you can predict the sliding sweep, might as well go for a 2-hit jumping fierce splash followed up w/ round house sweep. it will take more damage & leave you with a better position to setup your SPD.
Like evoanon & i write above, crouching fierce punch, lariat, & jumping strong can knock Vega’s dives…
Im not sure how walk up SPDs would work against Vega’s claw…His reach & recovery is way too good for you to come close enough to do walkup spd. Plus Vega is way too fast of a character to do walkups. Do you have any vids or links so i can see this in action?
krnight, i believe its just your timing. I’ve never seen Vega flip out of it afterwords…Its like Guile/Deejay, you get a free punish if they whiff…
Although that is pretty risky if he does something other than the reverse flip… =P