Perhaps because lots of Ken players can be reckless, which opens lots of windows for punishment. At least, that’s what I capitalise on.
Cautious Ken players can be tricky though. Especially when they get wind of the damage you can inflict when they screw up. His slow fireball is nightmarish too.
I figure Ryu is a tougher fight for a number of reasons:
-His hurricane kick knocks down and has some invincibility frames, so it can be used on wake-up. A knock down is a big hurdle for Gief because it allows Ryu to reset his fireball trap and keep his distance.
-His fireballs are noticeably faster then Ken’s, and he recovers more quickly. He also has a red fireball which knocks down and let’s him gain great positioning.
-His toward + FP ‘slides’ him into range to sweep Lariats, and he can easily bait them with his fake fireball
-His super is very dangerous against Gief.
Ken on the other hand has DP’s with a wider arch, but while this is an advantage against many characters, it does not affect Gief terribly because he will rarely jump in this particular match-up. Furthermore Ken’s hurricane kick does not knock down, so even if it hits, Gief often can time a SPD or some other grab after it. Finally Ken’s fireballs are slower and he has more recovery. This gives Gief a bit more time to greenhand -> SPD or lariat past them to threaten up close.
It’s certainly not a blow-out, but I think Gief has an advantage in this match-up, while the Ryu match I see as even.
Edit: I think every match-up is winnable for Gief except Honda. Some of the uphill fights such as Guile, and Deejay can actually be very fun to play. Chun Li can be very frustrating when she is determined to play a ‘runaway game’, and of course a good Dhalsim player is also very frustrating to fight (but one or two mistakes, and you can win). I’m pretty much ok with every match-up except for Honda, that one seems nearly impossible to me.
Crouching jab is your friend. Its no “out of jail for free” card, but it certainly opens up options!
I couldn’t agree more re: Dhalsim matches. Damn those bend the head.
I agree that Ken has a harder time keeping Zangief away than Ryu, but as a Ryu, Ken AND Zangief player, I don’t agree that Zangief has an advantage against Ken. Ken just has to be more careful against Zangief.
Don’t forget that Ken has a Knee Bash throw loop that Ryu doesn’t. Once in a while, I will catch Zangief by surprise if he’s just sitting there, waiting for me to whiff Jab Shoryuken or make some other mistake. Or if it’s a REALLY good Ken player, safe jump Jab > Air Tatsu > Knee Bash after a knock down.
After the Knee Bash, Ken gets a safe jump with Jab > Air Tatsu > Knee Bash again. Reversal Lariat will not work as Ken can block and punish, and if Zangief blocks, Ken gets huge frame advantage from the Air Tatsu to be able to do another Knee Bash.
I know, reversal SPD right? It’s harder than it looks. While it’s possible to reverse throw Ken, it’s a little harder to time reversal SPD, due to the motion required to do SPD, while reversal throw doesn’t require a motion. I’m not recommending that every Ken player should make this a big part of their strategy, but if Zangief players are caught sleeping, they could possibly lose the rest of the round to just one throw loop.
Also, Ken’s Overhead has greater range than Ryu’s Overhead, and I’ve also caught Zangief players watching with it. Also, I’ve seen it hit Zangief’s leg while Ken is out of range of the sweep. eg. Zangief’s sweep whiffs, Ken’s Overhead hits his retracting leg on the way down.
Also, Ken’s st.Roundhouse is great for poking Zangief’s Lariats. It’s got more range than Ryu’s Rushing Fierce and doesn’t get knocked down by Lariats from its max range.
If Zangief does his Lariats too close, Ken’s Fierce Shoryuken can get him from just over quarter screen range. Gotta be careful with how close you Lariat vs Ken.
And if Zangief does his jump + down Fierce meaty crossup too late or at a wrong angle, it can STILL stuff/trade all Ryu’s Shoryukens, but will eat Ken’s Strong (invincible) Shoryuken every time.
I remember the most recent japanese character ranking chart I saw had ken a full point below ryu, at either 3 or 4 (I don’t remember which, the fact that he was slower stuck out in my mind more.)
I think the slower fireball with worse recovery and no knockdown might have a good deal to do with the issue. Also the super.
Knockdowns are pretty huge when you are trying to keep Gief out. Basically Ryu has the edge over Ken because he has so many different ways to knock Gief down and each knockdown translates into an opportunity to press the advantage with an overhead or cross up or just to jump back and zone with more fireballs.
Knockdowns in general are really powerful in this game. Think of what a difference it makes for Claw’s wall dive to no longer knock down; think of what an edge it is for Ryu to be able to knock down Guile every time he uses his hurricane kick to fly over a sonic boom and hit him during recovery. This makes the match easier for him then it does for Ken.
Gief was initially given a green hand that would knock down to help him against Dhalsim according to Sirlin.net, and although Sirlin said it was very fair in that match-up, it made him too powerful overall. I agree. Every time Gief knocks you down, you are looking at a possible cross-up combo, or cross-up tick into SPD, or just a straight tick into SPD. Potentially that could be a huge percentage of your lifebar gone just after one knockdown.
What does Gief have that stops shoto jump/toward Roundhouse? My Lariate gets stuffed, as does cr.FP and they’re to close for me to do far Roundhouse.
Hm I think st. jab (chop) may either beat or trade with it since they would be close. If they time that jump/toward kick too early, you may be able to spd them after your block stun as they land.
I’m a Gief newbie anyone want to play a few matches for some quick pointers? GT BURRITO BANDIDO…
I hate Gief vs Gief,come tournament time. Still frustrating in casuals, but then again so gross you can’t help but laugh.
Yeah, Gief vs. Gief is really boring to me. I just play defensively and stick to normals, and this silly strategy usually works since while the other guy is trying to set up grabs, I’m playing just to counter jump-ins, greenhands and hops, and not looking for some way to set up a SPD, as he may assume. However, the match is not interesting to me, so I will move on (win or lose) after 1 game. A lot of mirror match-ups do not work very well, this is one of them.
same here … TILL i learned its a match where combos are for the win and thats a fun part of it crossupcombos to dizzy to win^^
but ok the most time i hate it too^^
If Ryu were real, I’d strangle him silly. By far the most frustrating match for Gief ever.
Christ Almighty.
I really like Gief-Gief and Gief-Ryu, they’re both all about footsies. Yay! Footsies!
Yeah, and oddly enough, Gief vs. Ryu was a pretty fair fight in vanilla ST and is actually considered by some even better for Gief now in Remix since Gief got a few extra toys to help him out. Fake Fireball may balance it out a bit, but the fight should still be pretty good for Gief. What areas are you having trouble with?
Interestingly enough, I played a lot of Gief match-ups today. It seems with the easier motions Gief is actually becoming fairly popular, although I would hate to see as many Giefs as there are Ryu/Kens. Maybe that will actually happen in SFIV since Gief is considered upper tier in that game.
Here’s a random one from today. Not great quality…and like I said, boring, boring.
[media=youtube]P4d0GUhRoho&feature=channel[/media]
Execution Aid
Actually in vanilla ST apparently Zangief is rated just over Ryu… at first this seemed like a misprint but considering the tools he’s got in the matchup, I’m leary to be so quick to say it’s wrong. There are some really, really great Zangiefs who really know how to Execute and strike fear in the heart of opponents.
XSPR
hey guys im new to this site… i really need help im trying to find someone im good with but cant really find anyone im trying gief out now but yea im tired of getting scrubbed by everyone online lol so if anyone can teach me some stuff online it be much appreciated. thanks in advance
I use the analog ps3 I was pulling off a spd, and what came out was a bear grab. So i tired it again. and same thing happened. I pressed the SAME button without the spd motion and it came out a punch. No i did not config my buttons
This has happened to be on a couple of occasions. could it be because i’m using an analog therefore more inputs creating errors ? anyone else have this problem ?
Any tips on getting Reversal lariats? I can pull off Reversal SRK with no problem because of pianoing but it seems like getting Reversal Lariats is all timing. If I mash PP/KK it comes out maybe 2/10 times for me.