The great thing about v-reversals is that the opponent needs to block a move first. So, when it comes down to dash up pressure the opponent still needs to guess between block, avoid spd or reversal which is in your favour; what the meaty does is give Zangief a way to heavily punish attempts to jump or dash out of the grab. It all comes down to making the correct guess and looking at the potential risk vs reward of the decision, that’s the nature of the character.
If you’re worried about v-reversal, make the guess and go for the spd. Or bait it out with a light attack and allow the opponent to waste v-meter without pushing you away; it’s possible to confirm with light attacks vs normal recovery into V-trigger level 2 but you pay the price in terms of damage done (~160 damage, ~300 stun).
I like to go for the reset instead of ex BD. I’m a big fan of the level 3 v trigger > knee hammer reset > headbutt combo first up. I’ll usually have a CA stored for the next v trigger chance, so it sets them up for the second time round when I’ll go level 3 vtrigger > knee hammer reset > knee hammer > CA. Even if they don’t block it still has a pretty good success rate of landing. I only tend to change plans against someone with a DP reversal available, and then instead I’ll go knee hammer reset > block and punish.
Fooling around with v-reversal punishes a bit. Found the following data, assuming the attack is blocked at close range:
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[] Majority of v-reversals (15f start-up, 24f recovery) vs light attacks leave Zangief with enough frame advantage to Iron Body and HP SPD. Also, you have enough advantage to s.hp or EX RBG if you wish.
[] Majority of v-reversals (15f start-up, 24f recovery) vs mp attacks leave Zangief with roughly a 1-2 frame gap, allowing blocks but no s.hp or EX RBG since armour isn’t active until the 3rd frame. However, if you Iron Body and quick release you’ll be at +3 and in range to land lariat confirm vs crouching, normal grab or hp spd.
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With that said, does anybody have any idea why s.lk to bait v-reversal leaves you with enough frame advantage to charge s.hp while s.mp to bait v-reversal doesn’t? They have similar frame data, but s.mp seems to leave a 1-2 frame gap similar to c.mp. Is there some special rule for v-reversals that prioritizes the button strength over move recovery?
What about yourself @view619 you had much luck with these Half VT plays?
What factors would one consider when using Half vs Full VT?
Opponent has invincible reversal
Who has the life lead
Opponent has V-Reversal
You don’t have EX meter
I’m going to venture into this area, because I would enjoy being USF4 Zangief for 18 seconds.
Interesting.
V-Reversal is just like an invincible alpha counter? You just interrupt your block state. Any frame advantages or disadvantages shouldn’t carry over.
Since stand LK and stand MP have the same frames behind (active + recovery), they should be affected in the same way for V-Reversals.
The way I would explain, what your observing, is that some moves have the ability to kara-cancel their recovery frames. That’s the conclusion I reached from my testing.
For example, notice Z’s screen position after rapidly mashing Stand LK or Stand MK. What you see is his gradually forward movement. Compare this to repeated but spaced single presses of Stand LK or Stand MK.
You notice no displacement when you allow the attacks to recovery completely. Thus, I concluded that Big Z moves forward in the initial phases of Stand LK / Stand MK, and then moves back, resulting in no net gain in position. But if the backwards movement is cancelled by the next move, he doesn’t move back and thus gains position. So moves like Stand LK / Stand MK, must be able to do this.
Therefore, I believe that against the V-Reversal, you must be cancelling some recovery frames of the Stand LK into the Charged Stand HP.
The frames you have behind (active + recovery) of Stand MP or Stand LK is 14 frames. This makes going into the Charged Stand HP, of which you need 3 more frames, impossible, before the 15 frame startup of V-Reversal hits you. Unless Stand LK has this kara cancel property and you are able to start the Charged Stand HP earlier!
Utilizing more level 2 VT is something I want to implement in my play more often, so most of this is just from lab work at the moment. Regarding when to use level 2 VT vs level 3, I think the main question comes down to:
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[] Do you want to establish momentum for longer with the improved hit-confirm and oki situations provided by level 2 VT?
[] Do you want a chunk of guaranteed damage with a weaker reset (Knee Hammer) or wake-up situation (EX Borscht) by cycling directly back into normal Zangief?
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I think being able to turn an incorrect guess by the opponent into a large punish in all cases trumps that guaranteed chunk of damage, unless you’re going to kill with the level 3 VT combo or the opportunity afterwards. Having a reliable horizontal move that can combo off of most buttons means the opponent needs to hesitate before holding up or back-dashing vs grabs, which is what you want.
When you factor in the cumulative damage and stun potential of successful attempts, plus the positioning you’re in while building meter towards super I think it’s worth considering. Especially since Zangief’s super is a game-changer in its own right, since it gives you a reliable hit-confirm as well.
sacrificing damage for the mixup is obviously not something new, but I don’t know if this is something I’ll use
vtrigger is one of gief’s most valuable resources and gambling on it like that seems not worth on a character who does enough gambling. if I go for the ex borscht I’m left at the classic dash into +2 situation and there are multiple setups involving knee juggles or other normals.
I say you should still practice setups after LV2 vtrigger cause you won’t always get LV3, but it’s not sacrificing damage for a mixup, it’s sacrifing damage for a different mixup.
Like I said, it’s a question of whether you want that guaranteed damage from the level 3 juggle vs having access to all the pros of remaining in V-trigger while pressuring on their wake-up. I’m not sure if I would consider it a gamble though, not when you can confirm directly into another level 2 combo easily and it’s not lost unless you spend it. And even if you guess wrong and they block the meaty normal, your’e still in v-trigger with all the benefits that provides (easy projectile punishes, any whiff punish turns into a combo, etc).
Now let’s put this into perspective, and see what damage we’re giving up.
Half VT = 120 (200)
Full VT. EX BD = 360 (430) *Difference = 240 (230)
Full VT. Knee Hammer = 243 (340) *Difference = 123 (140)
Full VT. Headbutt = 270 (430) *Difference = 150 (230)
Full VT. Charged Stand HP = 297 (430) *Difference = 177 (230)
V-Flex xx Half VT = 146 (260)
V-Flex xx Full VT. EX BD = 334 (440) *Difference = 188 (180)
V-Flex xx Full VT. Knee Hammer = 243 (370) *Difference = 97 (130)
V-Flex xx Ful VT. Headbutt = 264 (440) *Difference = 118 (180)
V-Flex xx Full VT. Charged Stand HP = 285 (440) *Difference = 139 (180)
Stand HP (Parry) xx Half VT = 196 (310)
Stand HP (Parry) xx Full VT. EX BD = 384 (490) *Difference = 188 (180)
Stand HP (Parry) xx Full VT. Knee Hammer = 287 (420) *Difference = 91 ( 110)
Stand HP (Parry) xx Full VT. Headbutt = 314 (490) *Difference = 118 (180)
Stand HP (Parry) xx Full VT. Charged Stand HP = 335 (490) *Difference = 139 (180)
It’s misleading because the expected values from each mix up differs.
But essentially, we give up 100 to 200+ damage and to be able to play like SF4 Zangief for at most 18 seconds and have to two vacuum attempts.
I disagree with both of you. Using the VT solely for damage is the SF4 way of thinking about it, akin to the Ultra Combos of the past.
I don’t think the VT has ever been about damage.
But more about enhancing the characters ability to do damage, as evident by how other characters use their VT.
On the flip side, the Rad Russian also has the chance to get solid damage (180 +70/100/120/240) from his VT also. Which I believe is an added bonus due to his weaker ability for hit confirms.
On that basis of how SFV plays, I believe the Half VT will be a very strong play and will become the standard line for V-Gief and future Big Z play.
In the hands of a skilled player like Snake Eyez, who makes more correct reads than most,
it would be deadly because it offers maximum opportunity for the VT usage.
It is the only jump in mix up setup against normal and back recovery. Possibly the only jump in setup.
After you land the Half VT, you get to play like SF4 Zangief with advantage and position, complete with set play and hit confirms.
The threat of them jumping becomes real. As you get to hit confirm into this version’s EXGH (the back Half of the VT). And go for another set play when you catch them with the back Half of the VT.
On hit of the Half VT, your two main lines would be:
Primary: Quick Step Forward. Jumping HK@. Headbutt. Stand MP xx VT = 330 (550)
Secondary: Aerial Feint or Empty Jump. HP SPD = 240 (250). Forward Dash with 16 seconds of VT remaining
@ Counter hits reversal LP Shoryuken from a back recovery. # Use Splash to counter hit them if they normal recover
Because we get two vaccum attempts after hitting the Half VT. It’s possible to do some interesting resets involving whiffing the first vacuum, and resetting into
crouch MK (if standing) xx VT
SPD or Back Throw
Jumping HK. Headbutt. Stand MP xx whiff VT (vaccum only). Crouch MK (Standing Confirm) xx VT (hit and VT ends). Proceed into setup.
We’re not simply trading damage for another mix-up. We’re trading damage of about 150 to 200 - 1 EX for a powerful mix up, and the ability to hit confirm and re-loop them into that same mix up.
I believe this is the adjustment we have to make, by using Zangief’s VT in two halves, we stand to make him a dangerous threat up close, and give them a big reason to block and not hold up-back.
The gief grind has been rough on me lately. I got bodied for the first time at my local, which i’m usually always top 3 at. And i’ve been unable to break 8k online. I’m on extended tilt, lol.
I like where Evan is going…it’s made me start thinking more about Red Gief and the prospect of staying in that form rather than immediately cashing out in some situations
So, when I see most Giefs, myself included, check jumps after safe lvl 1 VT, they use cr.LK and if it hits, go into lvl 3 VT xx EX ASPD. But, like mentioned before, you get a nice chunk of damage and setup. But if you’re coming from behind, which is beyond common, that setup is gonna have to win you the round or it’s likely you’ll lose because no more resources.
But let’s look at the options the opp has on safe lvl 1 VT. They can block, which protects them from cr.LK; they can jump/backdash, which protects them from SPD; they can DP, which gets them out of everything except block; or they can throw which beats out blocking if Gief expects a DP.
What if, instead of checking jumps/backdash with cr.LK, we check with ASPD and check block with EX SPD. It’s a lot riskier than cr.LK but if it lands, you still have a lot of VT. In fact, you can loop them into this setup a max of 3 times. If you guess right every time it’s a stun on most characters. And if you manage to get the safe lvl 1 VT meterless (like off HP SPD or CC sweep) then it’s even scarier with CA stocked.
I’ve also been thinking of scenarios regarding situations when we hit them with lvl1 suction. Since we’re +3 and they’re right in front of us, it does make for some interesting potential interactions. Alot of players hold up if they’re hit by suction just in case gief tries to drop the vtrigger for a spd, so perhaps we can work with that in mind.
Rough brainstorm example : lvl1 suction connects to punish a fireball or as a hit confirm , headbutt connects(if blocked, continue pressure with either M spd or cr.jab into st.hp,),St.mp xxx v trigger lvl1, repeat/or SPD
I think what I’m envisioning is a strange yet, seemingly doable form of a standing reset against an opponent where they need to commit to some form of option, which, as long as we don’t cause suction to be blocked, puts them at a severe disadvantage.
And because of suction putting them right where we want them, at worst, we can only land m spd, but should be able to always go for fierce spd or ex, and, instead of using v trigger on meaty suction at that point, we instead dash up and work with our +2 adv.
I’m gonna have to test this out thoroughly though, because this kind of premise could have alot go wrong with it, yet the potential rewards seem substantial
.Probably best to use level 1 vt for combos into super. Giving up on the damage and frame advantage you would gain from using any other level isn’t worth it, imo.
If you’re fighting chars like Nash, Sim, Chun I definitely think it’s worth it. If that VT combo doesn’t kill them, you will likely have given them hella meter to body you with. And with no resources, there’s a good chance you won’t get in on those chars again. So why not go for the setplay? Especially if that VT combo won’t give you a sufficient life lead either.
And think about it, even if they guess right on one of the setups and get out, you’re still in VT.
I’ve been advocating the level 2 VT combo for a while now, the one that doesn’t provide the juggle state but allows you to dash forward and continue pressure from there. Going for combos into suction without hitting them (standing reset at +3) is only really worth it when you’re going to combo into super because you give up damage, stun and frame advantage for a weaker mix-up opportunity (level 2 VT combo would leave you in VT anyway). The only other time it could be worthwhile to use is:
You land the activation level 2 vt, then dash-up and successfully hit-confirm into a level 1 vt. At this point, you are still in VT and able to land one more hit-confirm into a level 2 vt combo . Whether you land an SPD or level 2 vt combo at this point, the next successful read will stun in most cases.
Ideally, I think you should aim to manage your v-gauge in such a way that you’re able to combo into level 2 vt twice. Go for full level 3 vt combos only if the combo or follow-up will kill, if you’re trying to stage a come-back cumulative damage and stun will be more important than a chunk of damage at once.
Against this opponent, He was holding up in order to avoid the potential SPD, which led to him getting checked and sucked in close again resetting the situation, eventually getting caught with headbutt.
I think the important thing to take note of is how much damage this series of interactions did compared to if I had let suction rip for lvl 3 and gotten my traditional solid damage + ex spd/knee followup. I think using that method would’ve left me in a less advantageous position+fear factor ( Guestimating at it, I think he would’ve had about the amount of health after lvl 3+ follow up equal to the amount of health he had after taking that headbutt). The comeback factor feels immensely more powerful using this new branch of thought regarding V trigger.
Additional in-game example displaying usage of Spd during the sequence and the potential rewards :.
