I do wonder what the Japanese Gief players think of the character overall.
So far which Gief player has had success in tournaments so far?
That V-trigger mixup in the last part was pretty sick.
Whatâs the benefit of doing f.mk/st.mp after cc hk? If itâs for following mixup, wouldnât another hk does the same thing?
Ya I like going for mixups when v-trigger suction hits, seems to work
the st.mp was a mistake, f.mk into headbutt makes headbutt hit on last active, if a counter hit itâs +12, if not +10, blocked +5.
Woah nice. So basically free SPD after headbutt.
Is that a way to tell the frame advantages of different set ups? Like when you did that vt->headbutt, how do you know you have enough frame advantage t do it?
I know it works cause iâm the one who came up with it lol.
meaty v-trigger gives me enough frame advantage .
Evansgambit, do you think that the mixup I outlined in the guide I posted is solid?
Hopefully, I will be releasing a full V-skill guide for playing against Nash pretty soon. But I wanted to share another video in the mean time. One combo Nash players like is qcf+k (Moonsault Slash), st.lp, st.mp XX qcb+HK. What sucks about Moonsault Slash is that not only does it cover ground when needed, it also leaves Nash players positive when you block (+1, +2, +3 respectively for LK,MK, and HK).
However, Gief V-skill turns this into an instant SPD. And since it is the easiest of Nashâs moves to react to, you can effectively remove this option from them.
If you v-skill a moonsault itâs a guaranteed free spd?
Yes as long as you time V-skill as I mention previously. The moonsault needs to hit your armor towards the end of V-skill animation when Giefâs arms are down. This is what gives you the frame advantage, and they canât even jump if you get your timing down properly.
You have to anticipate the Moonsault and Iron Body ahead of time. If you try to react and absorb early in the animation, you wonât have enough frame advantage to punish due to hit-stop freezing the active frames of the v-skill. The same is true for any situation where you want to absorb and spd a single hit, it must be absorbed near the point where you can trigger the hit portion of the v-skill.
If youâre looking for a raw reaction, use st.hp and absorb a hit.
For those acceptable with the risk of SE
Stand LP is perhaps the best tick into SE, because of:
- similar cancel profile to Stand LK: +14 on block and +16 on hit (frames behind on cancel)
- less push back on block and hit than Stand LK
- more advantage than Stand LK, affording you more safety while you do other things: +3 on block, and +5 on hit, compared to Stand LKâs 0 on block and +2 on hit
- Stand LP has less recovery animation frames, so could be argued to be even harder for them to react jump out.
- and the threat of a hit confirm combo Stand LP. Stand LK xx Lariat, makes it legit.
ONE huge problem though, you need to be point blank, as Stand LP has 7 frame startup, so not sure how you can set it up. But there are far more stronger options than something like this.
Just have to see it from the opponentâs point of view. If you were on the receiving end of it.
For a mix-up to be solid, it has to cover all the bases. And your triangle does. SPD - Headbutt - Block
The base states:
Block
Invincible Reversal
Not Block (includes: Startup Frames of attacks, Pre-Jump, Jump, Back dash)
But the level of risk/reward is up to the end user.
Like you have multiple options to cover many of the different non blocking states.
Example:
- crouch LP. Stand MP (covers non block states of: startup of their buttons, covers pre-jump, and back dash)
- crouch LP. Stand HK (covers non block states of jump and back dash)
- crouch LP. BD (covers non block state: jump)
And you can use spacing to your advantage, to neutralize their 3 or 4 frame jab options, and win out via button priority
And what you need to do is to be able to âextendâ your SPD range. And this goes for all versions of SPD.
So that effectively, you can tick a 2 hit string, like crouch LP. crouch LP into the HP SPD with one forward step.
And then thereâs the react-able EX BD off of one crouch LP.
Although the headbutt is strong, it makes it easy for them to escape via back recovery. But good for the long game - to get them to the corner.
But if we want to stay on them, we may have to look at using Knee Hammer, for example to catch jumpers, to get back in, after our strings push us out.
Itâs a delicate balance, where Zangief users have to look at what they value, whether its the damage or the positioning.
I disagree. Because of the 37 startup frames, Moonsault is one of the few moves you can actually react to with V-skill instead of anticipating. Also it has less startup frames than a charged st.HPâŚ
If you watch the video you can see I press V-skill just as Nash flips and the animation begins as/after he says âMoonâ. The animation for moonsault is pretty recognizable as well, making the reaction even easier with practice.
OK, after having been inspired by @Marsh_D_Teach 's guide. And the use of headbutt to stop jump outs.
I think we need to use Knee Hammer in pressure strings, to stop jump outs.
The risk and reward is good with Knee Hammer
An example setup is EX SPD or HP SPD dash into crouch LP (on block or on hit) into Knee Hammer
Here are the reasons:
- If they jump, Huge frame advantage on the aerial reset. Allowing meaty headbutt etc
- If they jump, knee hammer allows you to stay on them, almost like glue. You will be in range for HP SPD or your pressure strings
- You donât have to guess between back and normal recovery, like when you use Headbutt
- Because of the frame advantage from +3 on block or +5 on hit coming out of crouch LP, you will startup your animation of Knee Hammer, and be air born by the time villain reversal mashes buttons, resulting in an air reset from a âjabâ instead of a full grounded combo. That is strong! - On block Knee Hammer is -3, so you could be relatively safe. As in not completely dead! :s
Despite Knee Hammer having the second best displacement of Zâs moves, it has relatively short hitting range.
It is possible to space a Knee Hammer to be better than -3 on block, and thus safe. But difficult.
Another possible set-up could be coming out of Stand MP. But ideally, we want a setup, that spaces the Knee Hammer well.
Love this, and you know how much I love knee hammer. So I will probably be using it even more now.
Well, i feel comfortable to use knee hammer after my lariat as a gap closer.
Although you are still in frame disadvantage, at that range their wake up jabs can not reach you, but you can exSPD them
Instead if you use a front dash as gap closer, you are always always always get jabbed out 
Thatâs really excellent evan, I didnât think about that! Iâm pretty excited to start testing that out in pressure. This may end up solving a lot of the many headaches we have to deal with
so Snake Eyez dropped Gief cuz he thinks he is a mid tier?
but didnât SnakeEyez win a tourney with Gief? I could have sworn I saw him win a local with Gief.
Snake said a couple things on his stream today that I agree with 100%.
- Gief is fun to play OFFLINE but online hell no.
Completely agree. I think Iâm done playing him online completely, itâs just not even worth the aggravation. This character is a walking punching bag online. Struggling against trash players has become tiresome and the netcode is trash too. Got over 6400 but honestly Iâm sick of the constant struggle.
- People that donât play Gief have no clue how bad he is.
I think all of us here can agree with this. Iâm sick of all these clueless scrubs in chats and streams that say heâs good or op. Seriously, how clueless can you be?
Man I donât know if itâs online or not but Ken can get away with murder⌠Also Iâm hoping they atleast return the hit invulnerability on his SPD itâs a bitch trying to tech but they âbaitâ it and get you for a good chunk of damage.