Completely agree on this, I don’t see how someone would want to learn something that is one-frame strict on a throw mixup. You are not guaranteed that the ryu player will reversal DP and he might as well just jump back out of the ex-SPD.
First of all, reversal timing doesn’t vary. You might be talking about quick stands. Wake up timing for quick stands can vary by 5 frames, and input windows for reversals are pretty large too, but reversal specials come out on the first frame after stun or knockdown frames every time. So, there is no guessing as to when a reversal special comes out after a block string or hit stun or non-techable knockdown.
In general, I think looking into ex-spd vs. reversal specials is still a good idea even if it doesn’t work out for Ryu. Specifically vs. Ryu, I’m still not sure how to use this exspd tactic, and in the end you may be right that there is no real use for it. If there isn’t a way to consistently time the inputs down to a single frame, like through jump buffering or tick-throwing, then its not worth doing. If there are relatively easy ways to time the ex-spd consistently, then its certainly a good option because it beats so many other moves as well as resetting the o-s wake-up game situation.
That’s not to say that it would ever be a good enough tactic that you should use it in favor of every other option you have (like, for example, the option to simply block). This set-up would be part of a mix-up so that the opponent would still have to guess what you’re going to do. In nearly every mix-up situation against Ryu, being dp -> ultra’d is a possibility, so let’s not have that scare us away from a specific tactic so easily. Instead, let’s find a situation starting from Ryu’s wake-up where we can force him into this mix up. If we do our part right, this could be one of the few situations where reversal dp -> ultra actually isn’t a threat.
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It would be a counter to DP->FADC backwards as a get out of jail free card. Ryu’s are much more likely to do this if they don’t have ultra.
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It would also allow you to successfully mix up Ryu when you do not have enough life to take the DP chip.
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It beats two of Ryu’s options. DP or blocking for 5 frames. Although people usually wouldn’t commit to only 4 frames of blocking.
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Fear: If Ryu is scared of it, he may DP less or go to EX DP. Both of these are great things.
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It’s flashy as fuck, and may make your opponent go on tilt. All of giefs matchups are a battle of patience. If your opponent loses theirs, it’s easier for you to win.
This also works on Cammy/Fei btw.
Alright, I just spent a bunch of time trying this out. It actually took a lot of trial and error to actually time the EX360k right so that I focus absorb the DP instead of getting hit. The timing is a little bit tricky. If you do it in reversal timing, you will get hit! If you do it too late, you will get hit! The best way I can describe how to time it is to hit PP the same time as the DP is about to hit you. There is a small window but it’s doable. But this is always assuming they will DP as soon as they finish their FADC.
Here’s the break down…
Ryu:
lp dp. If timed correctly, you will grab him out of the 2nd DP (RBG). If timed wrong, you will 1) get hit. 2) whiff your grab and he will be safe upon landing.
mp dp. If timed correctly, you will grab him out of the 2nd DP. If timed wrong (too early), you will get hit. But if you’re a little bit late, you will recover in time to land atomic suplex/ultra.
hp dp. Same as mp dp.
Ken:
The block stun from Ken’s DP is really short so if you 360k with reversal timing, you’ll grab him out of his FADC every time. And if you want to focus absorb his DP, only lp dp is one hit. And he recovers with plenty of time to punish your whiffed grab.
Sagat:
You can’t grab him out of any of his DPs as stated before. But when done correctly, you can punish him after any absorbed lp, mp, or hp TUs. The lp one has the strictest timing since he recovers the quickest. But it is still possible to do 360k/ultra after he lands and get him. But if you are late, then he is safe. mp and hp TUs are easily punishable with even late focus absorbs.
Akuma:
I only tried it with his lp DP. It seems to work just like Ryu’s lp dp. If you don’t grab him out of his DP, then he is safe.
Seth:
All his DPs hit multiple times. But I found that you can just mash lariat and you’ll beat out the 2nd dp.
Cammy:
She was kind of goofy, you can absorb all her spikes but some times she lands farther away, some times closer. If she lands closer, you can jab SPD her after she lands. That seems to be the only thing that you can do.
You can EXGH through the 2nd spike. If it’s lk, you can jab SPD her, otherwise, you can EXGH again and catch her.
Fei Long:
His fadc sucks and you can just grab him with reversal 360k. But if you do happen to focus absorb his lk DP, he is safe.
Oh, and pretty much with everyone, you can punish with ultra after the FADC if you are fast enough. But you need some super human reflexes to actually catch them unless you completely know what they are about to do. Then I suppose it’s possible.
Finally, if timed right, you can try EX SPD them out of their DP. The ones that you can grab anyways. But I’m not sure what the right timing for that is. It was easier for me to figure out the timing for the ex armor.
Plus, there’s already been some talk about using it to after being knocked down by an ex-greenhand over in the Ryu forums: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=216869
They’re saying they can beat or trade with the meaty lk knees using the delayed wake-up after an ex-greenhand knockdown, which is bad news for us because this is the most common type of knockdown that zangief gets in this match up. I tested this out myself and found that I couldn’t consistently beat the SRK using the standard meaty knees to the back of the head timing if Ryu was varying his wake up. But I’m not 100% confident I had the correct timing since it was just a quick test. So, somebody else help confirm please.
If it turns out this is the case, it should be outlined in the first page since this type of knockdown is so crucial in this match up. Meaty knees would become just as vulnerable to anti-air shoryuken --> ultra as other air attacks like headbutt or splash. Basically we would need to come up with an alternative where we look for a safe grounded meaty in anticipation of a quick stand and then go for meaty knees or something if the quick stand doesn’t happen.
Also, it’d be good to know if this changes the best meaty on quickstand versus other characters and after other types of techable knockdowns (like lariat).
[quote=“crapface, post:124, topic:74796”]
Alright, I just spent a bunch of time trying this out. It actually took a lot of trial and error to actually time the EX360k right so that I focus absorb the DP instead of getting hit. The timing is a little bit tricky. If you do it in reversal timing, you will get hit! If you do it too late, you will get hit! The best way I can describe how to time it is to hit PP the same time as the DP is about to hit you. There is a small window but it’s doable. But this is always assuming they will DP as soon as they finish their FADC.
Here’s the break down…
Sagat:
You can’t grab him out of any of his DPs as stated before. But when done correctly, you can punish him after any absorbed lp, mp, or hp TUs. The lp one has the strictest timing since he recovers the quickest. But it is still possible to do 360k/ultra after he lands and get him. But if you are late, then he is safe. mp and hp TUs are easily punishable with even late focus absorbs.
This part isn’t true…I have done it b4, in fact I was doing it last night against a Sagat player.
hmm, i looked at the frame data, you shouldn’t be able to…he’s got throw inv until he’s off the ground. Are you sure you’re spd’ing them through a TU?
Sound arguments from you and 87areeves87. I can see now how it might be useful - nothing game-breaking but another guessing game vs. ryu, cammy, fei (and possibly 'gat? :wonder:).
I am wondering now how much everyone’s frame data is gonna change with SSFIV.
I don’t know about frame data but I’m 100% sure that i spd his TU.
[media=youtube]6CzpKOD1v1I"[/media] is finally here! This is one is all about the basics and applying o-s to Zangief. The next one will show that option selecting is useful for everyone else, too.
Bah I’m at work with youtube blocked cries
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Its nice to see some of the O-S I ahven’t done/tried - in action, especially those akuma ones. I must get that knees->GH down pat. The Abel one is just unfair…and as someone who also plays Abel :mad:
Great job…not sure if I can rep again yet…someone rep for him if they could :tup:
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I was playing around with the Akuma o-s. It seems that if he uses ppp teleport, he moves far away enough that you can’t reach with cr.lk. If he uses kkk, then you end up close enough. But either way, you still end up near him. However, if he did the opposite direction telepory, I found that I would GH in the wrong direction so we would end up on the opposite sides of the screen.
Could you delay the punch press a moment, akin to Ryu waiting to get up to prevent cross-up? It should only be very very slightly…just enough that Gief would know where to go?
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Yep, that’s exactly right. You have to time the punch slightly later than with most option selects.
As for cr. short punishing the ppp teleport, I don’t know, in my testing this o-s got close enough to punish both. I’ll look into it more when I get a chance.
Well, it would be kinda interesting to try the o-s vs TP and then EX SPD to pull Akuma in on anything he tries…I’d hate trying to program that though…I’ll see what I can do when I can get my CoD out my drive…my 360 won’t pop out my games even when I hit the top of the case :sad: so I’ve been stuck playing CoD even when I want to run SF4.
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SPD hasn’t really worked that well for me after that green hand. I think the reason might actually be that I do it too early, like immediately after I finish the green hand, and Akuma is still busy teleporting then. But I also don’t like it because if for whatever reason I mess it up, I’m out there whiffing for so long that I’m gonna get a full stand roundhouse to jab combo into sweep into terribly meaty pressure. But if I mess up my cr short buffer ex hand, then oh well, I can’t be punished because the whole move lasts only 12 frames, so there are no negative consequences other than opportunity cost.
I tried both SPD and EXSPD after os hand. When I was close enough to land it, regular SPD worked pretty well. But some times, I would be slightly too late and I’d whiff. I would always whiff EXSPD though. I might just not have timed it right because it was kind of hard to program the dummy to do exactly what I wanted. I’d have to guess when the best time to input SPD is after the os GH because when I’m recording myself, the dummy gets hit and GH doesn’t come out. Things would be so much easier if I just had someone else as 2P.
I’m guessing the times I’m too late would be because I’m not doing the jump attack with meaty timing. This might be the case when I find myself too far away as well.
edit: I just tried it again. I wasn’t doing it meaty the first time. When I did it correctly, I could get him with cr.lk even if he ppp teleports. It took me a while to get the timing down in the recording of the dummy.
If you guys are interested, I just put out [media=youtube]tnXYcNgLE5M"[/media] about option selecting for everyone else. Well, almost everyone heh.
booo…youdon’t need toshow the Akuma players that one :shake:
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