I’ve been trying O-S hands on various people, but not from following the above info yet. One step at a time. Just randomly on wake-up go for it and see if I ‘do it’. Low success rate, but yeah it is kinda ‘awesome’ to see it actually work.
So your actually recording Gief doing the O-S and try to break out of it as…say Gen?
meaty ex spd stuff
***UPDATED 12/9/09 - Adding to the list moves that are punishable with non-meaty timing; ie starting the exspd during the opponent’s start-up frames. So far I’ve only looked at dp-type specials.
You can grab these characters out of the start-up of their non-ex dp’s: Akuma, Cammy, Dan, Ken (medium only), Ryu, Sakura
I don’t know if you can grab Akuma out of his fierce shoryuken, but if you can it won’t be with the same timing as the other two strengths.***
Meaty #1: df+HK, M. GH shortly after sweep, EX SPD (normal SPD should whiff for all three meaties)
#2 (for sagat, cammy): d+ HK, H. GH shortly after sweep, EX SPD
#3 (for blanka): lp+lk throw, H. GH shortly after, EX SPD
^Gives point blank grab, opponent wakes up into active frames.
Q: Which reversal special moves lose to meaty ex spd?
Abel ? CoD, wheel kick, roll, falling sky, ex command grab, super
Akuma ? fireballs, tatsus, and demon flips; jab & medium shoryuken (not meaty)
Balrog ? dash straight, dash low straight, dash low overhead, TAP
Blanka --> horizontal ball, electricity
Cammy --> spiral arrow, spin knuckle, hooligan combination; non-ex cannon spike (not meaty)
Chun Li ? Legs, fireballs, non-ex SBK, super
Crimson Viper ? non-HP knuckles, non-ex hammers
Dan ? projectiles, tatsus, super taunt; non-ex shoryukens (not meaty)
Dhalsim ? yoga fire, yoga flame, non-ex yoga blast, ultra
E. Honda ? hands, non-ex headbutt, command grab
El Fuerte ? command dash, quesadilla bomb
Fei Long ? rekkas, flame kicks, command grab
Gen ? hands, gekiros, rolling attacks, non-ex ogas
Gouken ? fireballs, shoryukens, non-ex tatsus, parries, non-ex demon flips
Guile ? sonic booms
Ken ? fireballs, tatsus, LP super; medium shoryuken (not meaty)
M. Bison ? non-ex psycho crushers, non-ex double knee press
Rose ? soul sparks, non-ex spirals, non-ex soul throws, soul reflect; ex-spiral (not meaty)
Rufus ? non-ex messiah kick, galactic tornado, HP super
Ryu ? fireballs, tatsus, super; non-ex shoryukens (not meaty)
Sagat --> fireballs, tiger knees, HK super
Sakura ? fireballs, non-ex shoryuken, tatsus, otoshi
Seth ? sonic booms, QCB + K, tandem engine, tandem storm
Vega ? rolling attack, sky high claw, flying Barcelona attack, super, ultra
Zangief ? ex spd, green hand, lariat
good shit ultradavid. Printed to PDF and saved
Hey Ultradavid, I tested the meaties you have listed for Gouken and couldn’t get him to “whiff over” any throws when doing a reversal ex-demon flip on wake-up. This is at point-blank range. What did work was a sweep immediately after a tech throw. Consider changing the third meaty from “throw” to “tech throw o-s sweep” or “tech throw immediate sweep” or something to that effect.
edit-- I know that using tech throws exclusively would cause gief to lose out on damage opportunities from 360/720’s since the opponent could start tech’ing when he anticipates a throw, but since you can also evade ex-demon flip with this approach then it seems like you’re just minimizing risk and the decisions you have to make during the wake-up games. You still have opportunities to damage the opponent if he goes for tech by doing cr.jab/shorts, and the cr.jab/shorts still give Gouken the incentive to use his counter specials, so I think this approach is worth considering.
You should rework these.
I know for a fact that you can grab cammy out of Cannon Spike. Also Ryu’s Jab DP.
The key is starting EX SPD AFTER they input and start their DP.
if started at the same time, Cannon Spike’s invincibility outlast EX SPD’s.
But it doesn’t hit for 5 frames.
EX SPD’s invincible for 4 frames and grabs on the 5th.
So if you start your ex SPD on Frame 3,4, or 5 of her cannon spike, your invincibility should outlast hers, and she should still be grounded for you to grab her.
What’s unfortunate about the frame data is that it does not tell you when the character leaves the ground.
I just tried to EX-SPD Ryu’s jab dp with the help of a friend online and I can’t get it to work. Are you sure it works with Ryu’s shoryuken?
I tested it today and it definitely works. In fact, you can time the ex-spd to grab ryu out of his reversal jab, strong AND fierce shoryukens. Position yourself as close as possible to ryu with his feet pointing toward you while he’s on the ground (you get closer to him this way since you can step through his legs but not his head). I’m not sure exactly when you should start the ex-spd, but its DURING the first 3 frames of his shoryuken (i.e. not meaty).
The set up i used was done in training mode. I recorded a dummy gief doing a point blank [[edit-- neutral sweep, not df-sweep for the record]] followed by an immediate ex-greenhand followed by an immediate ex-spd. The greenhand doesn’t do anything it just helped me time the throw. Even though gief started the ex-spd with the same timing each time, he grabbed ryu out of all of his non-ex reversal shoryukens. This same timing also grabbed akuma and dan out of a couple of their reversal shoryukens as well. A more comprehensive list will follow as soon as I have more time.
…Or someone else could help test it for me 
dunno if you guys have already got this squared away.
Akumas ultra can be beaten by spd if he is moving towards you (attempting to punish a lariat).
setup could be short lariat (recover in time) spd akumas ultra.
local geif player has grabbed me out of quite a few ultra demons
yo ultra david, you might already know about this, but if not… SURPRISE!
*
Tetra: You can tech up slower by pressing later after falling down(up to 5frames). Are japanese players practicing that? Is it useful in high level play?
Fuudo: This is very important against zangief. Because of this system, Ryu is in advantage.If not Zangief will have advantage. When Ryu wake up later, Zangief?s cross up will already be on other side. This allows Ryu to SRK in the correct direction. This is also extremely important against rufus dive kick.*
taken from an interview with fuudo, japanese ryu player. link here:
Heh.
I love it when I’m proved right.
Theoretically it should work for any DP that isn’t invincible or throw invincible for more than 4 frames AFTER it starts hitting.
Oh yeah, they gotta still be on the ground.
Ryu’s non throwable state is really short, and cammy and fei don’t have one.
Rose is also screwed. Her EX spiral has only 11 frames on invincibility. It starts hitting on 13. EX or regular SPD would work.
Can someone check to see whether if, when ryu, sagat, or anyone else with a 1-hit dp does dp fadc toward, gief can do ex close 360k to beat throw attempts and to both absorb the dp AND recover from whiffed 360k in time to punish the dp? I know it beats throw attempts in that situation. It should also absorb the dp but I’m not sure what happens after that. Does the dp-er continue into the air, and if so, does gief recover fast enough to punish? If not does that mean that ex 360k threw the dp-er immediately? If so, try it on a character with a multi-hitting edu and see what happens there.
I have jab SPDed Akuma out of his SRK. I was far away enough so that it would have whiffed if I didn’t do anything I believe. But it surprised me that I caught him before he got off the ground.
I have the actual book, i’ll check for you when i get home in regards to the airborne frames. it should be in there, just not translated in the wiki. I could be wrong though.
Ryu’s DP is airborne starting from the 6th frame. You should be able to grab all versions of DP except for maybe EX dp. All 3 non-ex versions of the DP have the same properties in regards to throws and airborne frames.
double edit:
nevermind, I read the frame data wrong. I always thought ex spd had armor, not inv frames. wow this changes things.
triple edit: putting the frame count thing back up:
ryu lp dp vs ex spd
ryu dp
****-@ til end * = inv frames, - = vulnerable frame, @ = airborne frames
+++aaaaaaaaaaaaaa + = start up frames, a = active frames
++++aa
****--
gief ex spd
This means you have to do
Thanks, man. The visual aid you gave made it very clear why the ex spd works. But I should point out that the ex spd works even on reversal shoryukens, and I think this is because ex spd has start-up hit invincibility frames rather than ex-armor (but no throw-invincible frames).
Since you have the book… when you have an extra 5 or 10 minutes, could you let us know what the first airborne frame is for Sagat and Ken’s DPs? I’m guessing its pretty early.
I have the arcade copy in front of me, so i can get ken and gat for you now. Cammy will have to wait.
wow, this is fucking complicated for ken:
lp dp: 1-3 inv, 4-6 throw inv, airborne on the 7th frame
mp dp: 1-6 inv, airborne on the 8th frame onwards
fp dp: 1-4 inv, 5-6 throw inv, airborne from the 7th frame
ex dp: 1-11 inv, airborne on 9th frame
In other words, it doesn’t work on ken unless he does the mp version of the DP.
Sagat:
non-ex: 1-5 inv, 6-7 throw inv, 8th frame airborne
ex: 1-11 inv, 9th frame airborne.
In other words, this should not work vs gat either.
Kinda disappointing results according to frame data…unless i’ve translated it wrong.
…I’m missing something…so I understand ‘why’ you can pull Ryu out of his DP with EX SPD…but how can you actually time that? I’m trying to think of how you can bait it, but it seems SO psychic…school me on the application of this…
i thought this was a straight up psyhic spd situation. maybe vs dp mashers you can jab jab ex spd, or blocked high d.lk into ex spd.
edit: WOW. I just looked at the book, it actually doesn’t say at which frame Cammy counts as airborne. Man the Console Guide is shit!
I’m just bullshitting here, I haven’t tested this yet. Take a look at the o-s meaty outlined in the vs. Ryu section:
What if instead of having to block in anticipation of a shoryuken after meaty knees connects you could just input an ex-spd? Potentially, you could beat all his reversal specials just by tacking on a well-timed exspd after [[inputting]] the o-s jab hand. That would just be nasty, imo. I’ll test this out later.
Dunno if you guys really wanna pursue this. Looks like there’s only 1 frame where ryu dp can be punished with ex-spd. Is it really worth it? Especially since reversal timing can vary, you really have to guess on it. Sure it’ll look cool, but if you guess wrong, you eat dp -> ultra. The risk-reward is just not in your favor. Wouldn’t you want to save your meter for more ex-hand?
It’s a nice trick to know about if you wanna show off your knowledge of SF4, but shouldn’t be considered a viable tactic, so I would not include it in the first post of this thread.
well what would the feasability be of cross-up, s.lk tick…EX SPD? I’m not expecting it to work, just doin some brain damage to take my mind off the brain damage at work right now…