Zangief Combos

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
201

This is not a theoried response.

Of course I have tried this. This is a common setup dating even back to the Alpha series, mabey even before that.

The way the system works as you know, more hits = less damage the higher you go. So you are right there isnt much to discuss here. If you have someone dizzy and you do cr.MK - > ultra or even cr.lk -> ultra, you will do max damage with your ultra because you have reset the combo.

I belive cr.MK is the most damaging attack that you can smoothly go into ultra from on hit.

The ultra is not doing any more damage than it already does.

I just would rather use an ultra with more chance of it being guaranteed than hope they dont react because then you deal no damage because you were trying to get an extra 30-50.

This is diferent than the standing 720 issue because even with the standing 720 you are still going to get a command grab even if you mess it up.

I understand we are all learning here and everyone is on different levels but people are just trying to let you know this might not be something worth learning.

But whatev. Any time spent in training mode is time well spent.

202

i am not saying to just c.mk > ultra when someone is dizzy.i never did.
every once in a while i will take my chances on any extra damage. unless i am playing a tourny or really need to win.besides you wouldn’t do no damage. you would get the FA and c.mk.of course its not as good as ultra, but it is some damage.:wink:

well out of 30 some matches i found 3 chances to use this. situational as we all agree.
it worked 2/3 times,against a gief and rufus. once with an ex-spd and once with a super(i wanted to try it).i messed up the other one. good enough to try every once in a while for me.
it is so easy to learn
if i lose i lose. i play for fun.
i like training but i do most of my learning against other people. i lose more but i am not pumping quarters into a machine like i used to ,so it is ok.

ok so after a couple more hours of play it has worked 2 more times out of 4. a rufus jumped out and a gief hit me with an ultra. it wrecked the bison i did it to.will be something i throw in when i do not have an ultra or even any meter(if i get a dizzy).if anyone uses FA on jump ins you could try this also, but i do not. i am going to mix this in at times if just for fun. it works well enough for now and more damage is more damage. we all take risks and do things that are unsafe, or else we would all be perfect

203

Best way to ultra a dizzy opponent is to taunt (Personal Action 1 or 4 I believe are the best) and buffer the 720 :lovin:

204

Lol, nono you have it all wrong.

8 is the best Taunt in any situation because Giefs laugh is insulting. I love when people wiff their ultra …say Ken, then as he is falling Im laughing and buffering my Ultra for when he lands.

205

I never taunt but I’d definitely have to say that 8 is the best taunt. I just recently learned this after watching a replay where the guy was constantly doing the laugh and I thought it was hilarious so I went out and figured out which one it was.

206

that was funny. what the heck was that guy doing. quit b4 the match started.
i like the " No More Games!" taunt.

207

Just go by the #'s

At the risk of sounding like a complete jerk.

Here’s what you get:

FA -> c.mk Ultra
170 + 90 + 600 = 860 dmg

This is 86% dmg for the “average” character. It will kill Seth and Akuma, come within 40 dmg of killing chun, viper, sim, gen and fuerte.

But if the char is already dizzy, isn’t he sufficiently damaged that a regular ultra will kill him, or thereabouts? If you want to tack extra dmg with the FA -> ultra then you’ll have to be careful, because every hits you give 10% less dmg, the last hit of the ultra does 400 I believe, so 30% off 400 = 120 dmg+10(first hit) +20(second hit). If they’re already dizzy, it’s likely scaled already, so you’re better to hit FA->ultra if you did a 1 hit dizzy because 170 for the lvl 3 focus is larger than 150 dmg loss on the scaling.

If you’ve done multiple hits before the dizzy then just ultra, or give the FA-> c.mk Ultra, a try depending on how much damage you need to take off of them. Clearly if they’re within 10% health or so, the preference is to just finish the round with an ultra.

To be technically correct in the decision, you’d have to know how many hits you did before dizzy, check the scaling on the ultra (at 10% it could do as little as 60 dmg). Since Zangief combos only go to max 6 ( splash->c.lp->c.lp->c.lp->c.lk->hands) before knockdown(ex hands), you’ll be at minimum doing 110 dmg with the ultra if you do it straight out of the dizzy.

Also factor in the percentage that they’ll escape from the c.mk Ultra. Assume that you hit the whole thing 690 dmg, this is break even with the 110 dmg worst case ultra if they escape 84.05% of the time.

If you need the damage, I’d try it.

208

thanks for the that. this was what i was asking for.
when i saw the damage i was getting in training i wanted someone else to check it for me
yeah i would never do this when their health is low enough,(cept when i am feeling frisky)
it was just something i was trying to see about coaxing a little more damage out of gief.and hoping to catch some players sleeping waiting for the inevitable ultra. and alot of times they are. and alot of times they aren’t.
most of the times the dizzy’s i get are off headbutts(i am sure most gief players are the same)but alot of times this happens at the begining of the match for me. which means that i can take the chance of trying this and not totally mess up the round or match.they mostly jump back.
thanks
besides it is fun to do.

209

More #s

I dig your philosophy replacementhero. But i think your math’s a bit fuzzy, no offense. Here’s a few related scenarios to consider:

Scenario 1

Zangief has over 50% health and is facing a Ryu with full health and zero stun. Zangief pulls off FA lv.3 and puts Ryu in crumple state.

Option 1: FA lv.3 -> c.mk Ultra
170 + 90(.8) + [100~150 + 100~150 + 200~300(.95)] = 625~827 dmg

Option 2: FA lv.3 -> Ultra
170 + [400(.7) ~ 600(.7)] = 450~590 dmg

If for some reason the Ultra reset doesn’t succeed, Zangief misses out on 208~348 dmg.

So for Lv.1 Ultra: 208=642x --> Ryu must escape less than 67.6% of the time
Lv.2 Ultra: 348=827x --> Ryu must escape less than 57.9% of the time

BUT if Ryu jumps back and the ultra whiffs he can punish easily with a throw, and this diminishes the return on the reset option.

      Lv.1 Ultra: 208=(642-130)x --> Reset has to work 40.6% of the time
      Lv.2 Ultra: 348=(827-130)x --> Reset has to work 49.9% of the time

Off a Focus Attack early to mid match, the reset option doesn’t look that great…

210

#s cont. scenario 2

Scenario 2

Ryu is in dizzy state after 2 MP headbutts. This allows us to look at our options following dizzy with the least damage scaling possible. (Ryu has 800 health now)

Option 1:
(dizzy) FA lv.3 --> c.mk Ultra
170(.8) + 90(.7) + [100~150 + 100(.95)~150(.95) + 200(.95)~300(.95)] =593~786 damage

Option 2:
(dizzy) FA lv.3 -> Ultra
170(.8) + [100(.6)~150(.6) + 100(.6)~150(.6) + 200(.6)~300(.6)(.95)]
=376~487 damage

Option 3:
(dizzy) -> Ultra
100(.8)~150(.8) + 100(.8)~150(.8) + 200(.8)~300(.8)
=320~480 damage

If the reset doesn’t succeed, Zangief missed out on 168~279 damage depending on revenge gauge.

168=593x --> Ryu must escape less than 71.7% of the time
279=786x --> Ryu must escape less than 64.5% of the time

If Ryu punishes whiff with a throw, then we’re looking at

168=(593-130)x --> Reset has to work 36% of the time
279=(786-130)x --> Reset has to work 42.5% of the time

Off a headbutt dizzy, the reset option looks a little better. Still not amazing though…

Note: compare options 2 & 3 and you can see that, despite the heavy damage scaling post FA, buffering your ultra from the FA lv.3 is indeed a better option assuming a very consistent (close to 100%) execution.

211

#s cont. scenario 3

Scenario 3

Very hypothetical, but for the sake of argument consider this final scenario. Keep in mind that these conditions let us look at heavy damage scaling due to combos, but minimize the damage scaling due to health meter remaining. Ryu has full health and zero stun; Zangief pulls off the following low damage, high stun mix-up/combo on Ryu:

MP headbutt ; j.knees, c.lp x 4, s.lk xx FADC ; j.knees, c.lp x 4, s.lk xx EX hand (dizzy)

Ryu is dizzied w/ 520 health remaining.

The “combo meter” would report 8 hits, despite the fact that both the 7th and 8th hit (from the EX hand) are scaled at 40% (7th hit scaling). (Just thought that was interesting.) We again consider our options:

Option 1:
(dizzy) FA lv.3 -> c.mk Ultra
170(.2) + 90(.18)(.95) + [100(.95)~150(.95) + 100(.95)~150(.95) + 200(.95)~300(.90)] = 430~605 damage

Option 2:
(dizzy) FA lv.3 -> Ultra
170(.2) + [100(.162)(.95)~150(.162)(.95) + 100(.162)(.95)~150(.162)(.95) + 200(.162)(.95)~300(.162)(.95)] = 96~127 damage

Option 3:
(dizzy) -> Ultra
100(.2)~150(.2)(.95) + 100(.2)(.95)~150(.2)(.95) + 200(.2)(.95)~300(.2)(.95)
= 77~114 damage (!)

If the reset doesn’t succeed, Zangief misses out on 46~77 damage. But if it does succeed…niiiice.

46=430x --> Ryu must escape less than 89.3% of the time
77=605x --> Ryu must escape less than 87.3% of the time

even if Ryu punishes with a throw (I know – its a measly throw, but its an easily executable punish) then…

46=(430-130)x --> reset must work 15.3% of the time
77=(605-130)x --> reset must work 16.2% of the time

So then in this scenario the reset option is, in my opinion, bearable. Replacementhero was right in saying its a good option after dizzying with a (relatively) long combo. I just wanted to scale the damage properly to help assess our options. Of course, there are a lot of other variables to consider here. Namely, the type of punishment Ryu dishes out on whiff and how much life each opponent has left. Hope this provided some insight nonetheless.

212

In your first scenario you’ve got 170 + 90(0.8) etc etc.

damage doesn’t start to scale until the 3rd hit, if I’m not mistaken.

I’ll look at the rest of the scenarios tonight.

213

Methinks this warrants whipping out Excel tonight and starting work on the street fighter calculator. Shouldn’t be hard to make, just get everyone’s move dmg + stun and char stamina +stun. We’ve missed a few things here, like extra scaling due to health (95% at 1/2 health, 90% at 1/4, etc.)

throw in a few fields for the starting conditions, and you’ll be able to see the outcome. With the outcome you can get percentages.

What does everyone think?

214

Glad you brought that up

While i was in training mode I noticed something interesting about comboing off of focus attack crumple states. It seems that the focus attack actually counts for TWO hits. Since scaling begins on the third hit, the c.mk following a FA lv.3 is scaled at 80% damage. So I still stand by

FA lv.3 -> c.mk : 170 + 90(.8) = 242

Furthermore, training mode told me that going into an ultra from headbutt dizzy scales as if its the third hit of a combo (see scenario 2, option 3 for calculations).

These two scaling factors are combined in Scenario 2, Option 2. This is why after a headbutt dizzy and a FA lv.3 the ultra combo is scaled to 60%. Again, these numbers are taken directly from training mode.

I was also surprised to see these scaling factors play out, but the data speaks for itself. Focus attacks count for two degrees of scaling, and ultra combos out of dizzy have an extra degree of damage scaling.

215

Anomolies, like the Bermuda triangle.

When I get home, I’ll check this out for other chars as well. If FA counts as two hits it would explain a lot. I’ve noticed the 2 hit greenhand counts as 1 hit for scaling as well. I have a suspicion that the entire ultra is scaled at 1 level, instead of per hit, but that I’ll have to check.

Almost warrants an Email to Seth and Capcom to see how the scaling actually works.

216

FA counts as 2 hits.

217

http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2009/may/09/how-combo-and-damage-scaling-works-street-fighter-iv/

^This is a pretty complete description of how scaling works in the game.

218

Very Informative! I do have to agree with one of the comments left. All this math is not even needed. Only more reason why Zangief should be doing more short and simple combos.

219

Update.

ok i just did this a couple minutes ago.
me vs bison, 3rd round. i started the match with a jump back and he with sissor kick. i hit him with a fp. than i did a fp headbutt and caught him doing a dr.
he is now dizzy
I FA level 3, when it hits i dash cancel out forward, Crouch MK (with the mk my super activates) than super him. when it is over he is 1 jab from me from game over. like 95% or more life.
this is why it is worth it. it has worked more times than it has not for me and it is more damage.
but please don’t do this. that way when i do it the other player will not have seen it already.
cant hurt to mix it in.

220

I got a sweet ragequit image by doing this :slight_smile:
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/1299/dizzyrage.jpg