Your 4 frame gap between the start up of Stand MK or Crouch HP, against Ryu’s 3 frame stand LP, allowing Zangief to win over,
has got to do with hitbox/hurtbox manipulation.
On that ONE critical frame where Ryu’s stand LP is active BEFORE you hit him, it’s whiffing due to range (or vertical range in the case of crouch HP). Then button priority of H > M > L kicks in, and you win out on the next frame.
It’s a similar principle to how the crush counters, can beat lights. By hitting at the very tip, to reduce your hurtbox and then use the game’s button priority to win. In that way, you bypass a start-up frame disadvantage.
Yeah. Ryu’s 3 frame Stand LP has a short hitbox. - Shitty range. And Siberian Shoryuken has an initial crouching hurtbox.
I just love the name of it. And when they fix the input lag, will definitely be strong. But then I’ll be using the BD to anti-air. LOL =)
Lariat against normal recovery looks about +18
Lariat against back recovery looks about +22
*Thus back recovery is 4 frames longer
After lariat you have to guess between normal or back recovery.
If they normal recover, then forward dash is unsafe! Hence why your getting hit.
If they normal recover. You have to meaty them. Your meaty options are:
[list]
[] MP/EX SPD
[] Knee Hammer (meaty or counter hit). Stand LK xx Lariat
[] Head butt
[] Stand HP
[*] Pretty much any attack
[/list]
Yeah. It does appear Zangief is weak to back recovery.
Trying to land a crush counter Stand HP on them, is stupid, because why would they wake up with buttons from half screen!
If they back recover. Then you can forward dash if they don’t have a 3 frame attack. You’ll be negative and can block/CA/Flex
But you can manipulate the spacing after Lariat hits, by holding forward, neutral or back, so that after you forward dash, what ever they press whiffs, and your ready with the LP SPD or whiff punish with Stand MP. I recommend neutral if you want to dash up.
Because of the guesswork involved, its probably best to prep for a normal recovery and meaty with Knee Hammer, so that you don’t dash to your death if they quick rise with buttons.
And at least with the Knee Hammer, against back recovery, your at negative frames but still in play with LP SPD/crouch LP/stand MP etc
Lariat-Dash vs back recovery is like the LP SPD-dash game all over again. It’s better but not that great, since its V Gief.
This only works on moves that have recovery frames, and what armor seems to do is give you a frame advantage equal to that of the recovery. I pretty much cancel to SPD (usually LP or MP because of range). You need to press (not hold) Gief’s v-skill and use as a parry and then immediately cancel to move of your choice. In the case of SPD it connected each time as long as recovery was 5 frames or more.
When I tested vs Ryu I did it against a link of 3 frame jabs. V-skill armor the first jab and then SPD registered as reversal before next jab could hit. I also tested it against jab then immediate jump. SPD caught RYU before he could jump as he was still in recovery frames for jab.
It will not work against Ryu special combos (i.e. jodan nirengeki and jodan sanrengeki) as they don’t show any recovery frames, but both of those are -7 on block anyway.
Hope this helps. Long live Gief!
@Evansgambit - please test to make sure I have this correct. Just want someone knowledgeable to double check for me.
Yes. Release MP+MK upon 1st hit of armor, and then buffer 360 as soon as possible. You wont be able to buffer 360 if you hold armor for 2 hits or move forward because then flex is released.
I have a feeling this is why the official guide from Capcom mentions that Gief is very v-skill dependent. And the reason for flex is because they don’t want you to have 2 hits of armor and then be able to buffer another move.
Optimal usage of V-Skill is lacking from every Zangief match. So, I’m excited now!
Because I’ve never seen the V-Skill into SPD against jabs.
What timing are you using? And what commands are you using?
I have noticed that the frame advantage you get can differ, I thought it was due to input timing.
The only way to know for sure, is to test numerous V-Skills, freeze frame and slow down the animation, with inputs on, and analzye
it frame by frame, so that we can best understand how to maximise its usage. And when to cancel.
Yea. I was playing local with a friend and accidentally did it. He had mentioned he couldn’t even jump as I v-skilled a mid ranged poke and followed up with SPD. So originally thought it was just a problem with frames because I had my GPU max settings and it’s not like I have the most high-end PC in the world…
Then I started testing it out. The timing at first is very hard, but once you get it down its quite easy. I typically use LP SPD or MP SPD because although you don’t experience any hit stun while the armor is active you do get some knockback at times.
As I mentioned, I use it like a parry so you have to time it as such to activate v-skill. Then as soon as armor absorbs attack, release MP+MK and then follow up with the command you want to use next.
I even did st. LK to Lariat a few times (though you have to be pretty close for this), but to me SPD is best option. I am going to keep practicing because that will definitely help to keep people from rushing in on Geif.
This is pretty much what Stupendous was doing to Chris T’s Ken all match in his WNF victory. But if we are able to punish lights with SPD after a flex? That’s a game changer. Let’s play around with this more and see what we can find out.
4:05 mark shows exactly what I mean. It works against anything that has recovery frames. You will see Ken is still in the recovery frames after his punch hits the armor when he is grabbed for SPD. Then again at 5:27
I like the way this guy uses my fav. move (knee hammer) as well.
In my search for something better than headbutt, st.mp, I think I found something pretty good. Rather than doing st.mp after a headbutt, how about a cr.mp. It does about 10 less damage but you’re +5 now. Also with cr.mp you have more options. You’re kinda far from the opponent but you still could cancel the cr.mp to RBG. You can do another c.mp which would beat any button and give a CH or you’re still +3 on block.
What I’ve been doing though is going for headbutt, c.mp, st.mk. Here’s why. After the c.mp the st.mk is effectively 4 frames now because of the +5 from cr.mp, st.mk will basically beat any button (3f jab might beat it I’m not sure about the range factor) and non invincible reversals and give a CH. With that CH st.mk you can link it to VT.
Any other ideas for spicing up the following attacks on a headbutt hit? St.mp is guaranteed damage, but so bland. What else can we find?
The first part of the video shows what usually happens when someone is mashing. The next part shows what should be happening. The timing window is pretty small. You can’t do too soon or too late.
Ok got it. That is what I figured you were thinking about. That form of suction, on hit this is, is only +3. They still have 2 frames to mash an invincible reversal or jump/backdash away.
Ideally you’re going to want to activate VT in these ways:
st.hk/st.hp/cr.hp cancel to VT
v skill flex hit to VT
counter hit mediums to VT
punish projectiles and projectile supers (Rashid, Bison, Ryu, Guile)
The only way I am activating it raw is when I am on a pixel of life left and I need a psychological advantage. Red Gief makes people play a little differently. It opens up a chance for a comeback if you can safely land a jab and suck them in for the VT combo even if it is the 5 hitter. The last thing I want to do is die with meter.
Our VT is too precious to activate it raw though. Combo into it or punish projectiles for optimum usage. If you do land a suction hit like in this video, the only 100% thing to hit is super.
I will test it out against invincible reversal but their window is probably even worse than ours so mashing it wouldn’t be the best thing to do timing wise. Also you could just trigger v-skill if they hit with invincible before and then punish their reversal.
Same for jump/backdash, the reaction window for that is pretty slim I think.
