OMG dude you beat me by an hour!!! I just discovered a frame tight trap into kara myself, but it was with f lp late xx into hk karakusa, cant be jabbed out of or thrown. So with your ones looks like shes got a few ways to do it. Im pretty sure its a trap, i couldnt spam jabs with ryu or throw after blocked f lp.
Also her best grounded anti backdash OS i think is st jab, os cr fp. as st jab is her quickest normal and gives her + 2 on block, its a great way to start a block string, and you can go into cr jab after with ease, and cause of the 4 frame active frames on it (According to frame data out atm) it can be meatied.
So special cancel can be done at every active frame of the move ? That’s great, as some normals have a lot…
Let’s see with the blocked s.mp cancel karakusa example if I understand well:
if you buffer the special during the startup of s.mp, you hit on 1st active frame of s.mp and skip the 6 remaining active frames to startup the karakusa.
Meanwhile the opponent is in a 6+7+2=15 frames blockstun (remaining active+recover+adv).
Your HK kara becomes active on the 10th frame, and whiffs.
But if you delay the cancel until the last active frame of the s.mp, you can delay as much as 6 frames, hk kara will grab as it becomes active on the 16th frame, blockstun gone.
Right ?
The criteria would be normal active frames -1 (number of cancellable active frames) greater than or equal to blockstun - 9 (number of frames of blockstun when you cannot start kara or it will whiff), so
normal active frames + 8 greater than or equal to blockstun. (=active+recover+adv-1, so I get the same as you : recover+adv-1 = 8 or less)
So in game terms, if the frame data is correct, we have :
3 frames to late cancel on: s.lp, c.lp, f.lp
2 frames on: s.lk, c.mp, c.mk, f.lk, f.mp
1 frame on: s.mp
(all blocked, using hk kara)
No move meets the criteria on hit.
I apolgise for if this has been answered somewhere, but does Makoto have any jumping cross ups? Ii find that her ground game is excellent, but jumping in on the opponent seems hard for me.
Right, did not know that Checked on SRK wiki, moves become active on the last startup frame in this convention…
Let’s scheme a perfect late cancel (cancelling only the recovery frames of the normal move) to be sure I don’t make anymore mistake (H hit frame, G grab frame):
[H][Active - 1][Startup - 1][G] (Attacker)
[H][ Blockstun__ ][G] (Defender)
Active - 1 + Startup - 1 >= Blockstun
And: Blockstun = Active - 1 + Recover + Adv.on block (checked on SRK wiki for frame data convention) so Startup >= Recover + Advantage + 1.
so Recover + Adv. on block less than or equal to 8 in hk karakusa case.
Meaning:
2 frames to late cancel on: s.lp, c.lp, f.lp
1 frame on: s.lk, c.mp, c.mk, f.lk, f.mp
Well, late cancel is possible…
And I don’t think it’s possible during the recovery frames (easily testable with s.hp xx hayate: 3 active, 24 recovery frames). Maybe the hit frame starts a cancel window of its own ? It would be great to have a SF4 system specialist here.
You are right for the cancellable moves. c.mk, f.lk and f.mp are not cancellable. s.lk and c.mp are. And all 3 moves listed for 2 frames late cancel are.
Wow, never heard about that I’m learning a bunch of new things here. Thanks !
btw, any source for this ? It’s not in the SRK wiki. Well, it’s easily testable, I’ll just try and tick throw gief from a j.hp, gief doing reversal spd. Gief has 1 frame out of blockstun and before spd, I’ll see if he can be grabbed during it.
Where you do get the two extra frames of throw invincibility from?
This is all very weird. It does work, somehow. I was able to get a dummy recording that succeeded at least one time. And I definitely wasn’t able to jab out of it. But the justification for why it works given here sounds less than true.
I’m not going to call myself an expert at SF4 system mechanics. But I do know a little bit. I don’t recall this being possible in vanilla, although I could have just missed it.
It is definitely not possible to special cancel on every active frame. This thing right here might actually be new. Perhaps they attempted to allow slightly later cancels in order to make certain things easier to do. And didn’t think this through enough, which resulted in this strange thing occurring.
It is definitely executing an active frame of the karakusa grab on the first frame after the f-lp I was using. Gouken’s EX rush punch is unique in that it is invincible from frames 2-25. Frame 1 is left as completely vulnerable. Attempting to reversal with EX rush punch after the f-lp XXX hk karakusa that succeeded got gouken grabbed. I am amazed.
Wait, do you mean mean f+LP or far light punch? Because i don’t think f+LP is special cancellable and it leaves you at exactly 0 frames on block according to the prima guide. Or maybe gouken’s invincibility doesn’t include throws?
Late cancelling is nothing new. In old SF4 Fei Long could (and probably still can) do the same thing to go into Tenshin after a jab on hit:
SSHHRRRRRRR < Fei st.LP
XXXXXXXXXXXXXTT < Opponent stun (13f hitstun + 2f throw invincibility)
SSSSSSSSSSSSSHH < Cancel into Tenshin. Whiffs because of throw invincibility.
SSSSSSSSSSSSSHH < Late cancel into Tenshin on second active frame. Connects.
Makoto’s late cancel works for the same reason. The delay pushes the second active frame for her karakusa just beyond the opponent’s throw invincibility (as shown by the diagram in my previous post)
I do mean f+lp and it does appear to be special cancellable. It doesn’t not appear that karakusa can usually throw gouken’s ex rush punch on any frame but the 1st (or after the active of course.)
I never realized fei could do his command grab on a hit s.lp. I tested it just now in ssf4, and it appears to work similarly. (Meaning that it’s difficult to get work right, but it does sometimes work.) Is there a thread where someone narrowed down the 2 frames of throw invincibility? I still have a little trouble believing that. It could make sense given the frames. But it just seems too weird.
Meaning Mak can 1-frame tick kara with
ex kara for blocked (usually not in range)
mk kara for hit (usable)
1 or 2 frames delayed hk kara for c.hit (maybe kara kara ?)
s.lp is the same but for counter hit (get only +1) which allows 1-frame tick into hk kara (usable) or 2-frames into mk kara.
c.lp ticks with lk kara on hit, mk kara on C.hit (or 2-frames into lk kara).
f.lp, with 2 frames to ex kara on hit, 1 frame to lk kara on C.hit (both usually not in range).
f.mp with 2 frames to ex kara on hit, 1 frame hk kara on C.hit .
It’s pretty easy to notice actually. If you’re good at timing meaty 3 frame jabs with 2 active frames (such as Rog’s cr. jab) on your opponent’s wake-up, you’ll notice that if you use exactly the same timing with a throw, it’ll whiff.
FA lvl2 -> dash*2 -> HP fukiage -> MK tsurugi -> EX hayate
works on:
guile, honda, makodo, abel, el fuerte, dictator, sagat, gouki, deejay, t.hawk, cody, sakura
Checked on SRK wiki, moves become active on the last startup frame in this convention…
I’m learning a bunch of new things here. Thanks !