This is a good post, I’d like to throw my 2 cents in. I wrote a post back on the NW forums a few years ago about “asshole mode”. I wish I could find it (search on “asshole mode zass” doesn’t bring it up). But anyways, the point is that sessions are great and all, but the danger about playing in sessions is that people play “for fun”. People bust out the 4th tier characters, and soon enough there’s a random select team tournament pokemon beer pushup challenge.
I’ve seen a lot of local scenes that had real talent, with players that would be evo top 16 potential (paris, france for example had a scene with real talent like this). But the locals always played “for fun”. So you’d get people that could do cool funky combos, and people that could say “yeah we can hang, we lost, but it was close”.
So it’s a mentality, and Deeze and Mickey D are absolutely right that a winner’s mentality is very different from a “let’s have fun” mentality. There’s two ways to create and nuture such a mentality:
Rivalries. I think trash talking and anger are good motivators. “I’m going to beat that trash talking asshole” is a really good fire.
Tracking and reporting of tournament results. Hold tournaments and post the results. The way Deezo and Doughboy did reporting of the MVC2 and ST tournmanents at Preppys were very motivating. I saw a lot of NW players track these results, and strive and brag about how they placed. I saw a great culture of competitive improvement, and it made me really happy to see how much the NW scene improved as a direct result of these tournaments and tracking of results.
It’s just sad that me, mike, Carlos and Cole had to rep Seattle in Portland AND in Norcal by our selves. Probably just a bad timing thing for most people but it would help our scene grow if we got a bunch of heads to roll down to more out of state events. It would influence other out of staters to come up to Seattle. But when people can’t even drive 15 minutes to a tournament (tourneyplay seattle, Mill Creek, Lynnwood, Kirkland) then you know we got a problem lol
And the connection of Portland, Seattle, Idaho, BC and Norcal is important to expand on. It’s always fun to play people you’ve never met before. Zass is right about rivalries as well. Norcal and Socal have that strong rivalry that makes them play better and makes their scene have a stronger sense of unity. When someone in the room we were playing in asked Ed Ma about JR Rodrigez and his play style he replied " That guy plays so dumb. He’d rather get a demon than win. But he’s Socal so I can’t down him." lol
What would you suggest we do differently? We had the biggest gathering at Jeromies we’ve ever had last saturday, and I feel some of us are learning a lot. Going to NCR helped a couple of our players.
I definitely am not disagreeing with you, but I’d like to hear what you think we should do.
It would help if people weren’t such BITCHES about driving. We are so softbody in the sense that nobody will drive more than 20 minutes to get somewhere. It also doesn’t help that NONE of our top players show up at any fucking sessions. I have never in my entire life played Jason Cole casually in anything. I’ve played one set with Mickey D, I’ve played one match against the Future, I’ve never played LTB casually (gameworks doesn’t help me improve for many reasons), nor Tanaka. I have played with Mandel only a few nights when he held sessions (which I drove over an hour to get to - again I say, bitches). That one ceramic sugar guy (I think that’s him, gw player) Chris? He’s good but he only plays at GW from what I’ve seen. Nolan is like the best player I consistently see around, and he’s a very helpful opponent. He gives more tips than anyone else I know…
I’m not without guilt though, I am very guilty of not being hungry. I don’t like SF4 so it’s hard for me to be hungry when there’s so much work involved in getting better. I long ago decided that I play the game mostly to hang out with the people who play it because they’re cool cats. Other than having fun, honestly my favorite thing I get out of SF4 is trying to help the lesser players get better. I hope I don’t come across as an ass to new people because I try to constructively critique everyone. I play every single character in the game so I can try to expose people to more characters (I hate the “I don’t know how that character plays!” excuse/issue). I drive to more sessions than anybody else in the scene! I try to do my part. I would host but I don’t have a television in my living room and nobody is willing to drive to Edmonds. I’d like to practice with Tanaka since he’s in Edmonds, but I’ve yet to really strike up a conversation.
They are talking about top 8 as significant because it meant you move on to Day 2 of the competition where a few hundred people and more on the stream are watching you play intently. Also the tournament had 220+ entries. Top 8 for someone from a fringe scene would have been a huge accomplishment.
I can’t stand to hear you talk like you are the Don of the NW scene though. Especially when you contradict yourself. You tell Carlos that his mentality about being satisfied with his performance is a problem, well I specifically remember after you lost to AIR in a moneymatch at NWM you posted about how close it was and how you felt good that you kept it competitive. Then you talk about how you shouldn’t be subjugated by all the weak players in your area to play characters other than your main? Yo just fyi: Cole & Billy would both play any of their characters vs anyone in casuals before console came out and yet they were still the best two players in the area without dispute. Both helpful players who are inviting and simply want better competition, not trying to dry up the competition around them by cutting off the circulation of information & mean mug everyone to get out of their way.
I really hope that everyone that has posted in this thread can put their egos/dislikes of people/status in the scene etc. Aside and really read each persons posts in here. There are great points coming across from both sides.
Honestly I’d love to see a b0kkin/Mickey D rivalry form up. They are two of the best players in the scene, we have B0kkin who I can say is the most hungriest player we have (borderline obseessed for competition even). We have Mickey who as stated hasn’t really found ppl to challenge him and has moved on to become one of the best teachers in seattle (proof of that is watching Pat play and the leaps and bounds of improvement he’s made since EVO). It’s two different mentalities in everything and I can see that the two of you can really pussh each other to become the best in seattle alongside other great players like deezo, ltb, mark, cole, elias etc etc.
The talent is here folks, after we lost zach’s I saw what could’ve happened to our scene. That’s why I stepped up to get tw’s going. To continue to have a competitive drive in seattle. On the outside one might think it was counter productive to have teams, but once you get past that curtain, people are playing. People are practicing, I see the improvement not only @ tw’s but during sessions too. It’s hard to see it as a whole because singles aren’t happening. With season 2 that’s going to change.
The biggest thing I’ve learned from starting tw’s is, to truly get a scene strong you have to look past petty differences and dislikes about people. Granted there are some people I don’t like in the scene (I know there are ppl who don’t like me either which is cool), but I will play because it’s for a greater cause…
Riki, mike, and carlos are on the right track. The hunger is there, they just don’t know how to feed it right now. I think that you guys should set higher expectations for yourseelves, you saw how you did in norcal, you guys have a general idea on where you stand in our scene. Now’s the time to surpass that and start climbing. You can’t make it out to play the better players in our scene? Become that better player. Become the person to where people feel they accomplished something big from beating you in a tournament. It’s easier said than done of course but no one said being a leader is easy now did they <3.
I mean I came to this realization, I realized that for me I feel that it’s more important to be that foundation for the scene. I felt that it’s more important for me to be the conductor of this symphony called team seattle than to be the lead clarinet player with the 5 minute buff ass solo. It’s crazy to see how much our scene has changed within the past year. We grew in numbers but not in drive and passion to be the best, that actuall has gotten smaller and smaller. I hope mickey’s thread really has people sitting down and thinking about their game. He’s not trying to come off as arrogant or as an asshole, it was just what needed to be said.
We have a long way to go before we can get out of MvC2’s shadow. Do we have what it takes to make that happen?
^This…Also the clarinet solo made me laugh…I’ve always had I think what is a one sided rivalry with MickeyD after he knocked me out at my second preppys…I used to have the mentality of I’ll do my best at tournaments because I’m a realist knowing I wasn’t going to win but now that I have some execution down and some experience…I now go for the win not just top 8 or 3 but 1…I went to Nor Cal for the experience but also to win… and in my match against Dagger he beat me like no-ones business (I didn’t get a round) that was my own personal wake up that yeah I’m better now but I have more to go and I’m going to get there.
I’m aiming to be the BEST Seth player in existence, I’m a million miles from that goal mentally at the moment because of ARR ELL issues (Get it? Real Life), but I feel that soon enough I will be back on track.
I know very little by comparison in this game to everyone else: execution, match-up strategy, plinking, option select, Patient Penguin stance, Aggressive Alligator form, Pressure Puma. There are a ton of things that make this game competitive, and also a ton that make the game fun.
I’ve always taken games I play competitively serious beyond belief, in the past, it’s ruined relationships, wasted (Not financially sound investments) money, time, effort, caused physical harm to myself/others. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all fun & games right now, but that’s merely because I do not want another game to consume my life like others have done in the past. I’m working on moderation while implementing good habits while I play the game.
I know people almost always see me smiling, laughing, flipping out, angry pants, or some depressed mode when I play… None of these are tournament mode. I have a secret face, I save only for tournament, my brain becomes free of all thought or distractions, I become focused for one thing and one thing only. I do not let whiffed moves make me think “I whiffed an SRK and he did 80% damage to me cause I’m Seth.” I think “Attack or Block”.
“Attack or Block”
-This is the means in all aspects of fighting games, the free-will, the intuition, the instinct even to either Attack: potentially damaging your opponent with risk, or Block: I will block EVERY attack he can throw at me and only attack when the time is right.
I’m done, BYE!
Hugs and kisses mother fuckers, because I’m free and I’ll admit it, but don’t get to thinking my losses mean nothing. If someone beats me, I will come back and beat them 10 times as hard and make them regret that outcome, that’s my drive.
wow@ some of the responses in this thread. it all really comes down to the individual. how well do YOU want to do? how high do YOU want to place? how bad do YOU want to win? there will always be a community. but if no one is willing to step up and above everyone else, then we’ll just be a bunch of “decent” players.
i dont have a console. fae doenst work at gameworks, so i dont go there. my car got bashed by a mexican and now my window got mashed in so i cant drive. i dont have the motivation to go out there and be my best. (execpt when super comes out, you all will be FUCKED) , but why should people compare themselves to people like me? its seems like a lot of crying in this thread about not having the competition, people not coming out to events, etc. well, maybe there should be a reason besides “im tryna kick it with the homies” for people to go out there.
and beasly’s “asshole mode” is fucking true. when i do play, im usually at jacobs and we go best outta 7, and we dont go easy mode. thats how some of the tekken guys do it. those guys are know pretty well in the tekken community.
mickeys right. niggas is too content with being average players, or they think theyre already fuckin dope at this game. /dismount your high horses and and open your eyes to the real picture that you arent “the best (insert character name) in (insert where youre from) cuz i (almost)beat the best (insert character name) in (insert area).”
^what Frank said…Also the clarinet solo made me laugh…I’ve always had I think what is a one sided rivalry with MickeyD after he knocked me out at my second preppys…I used to have the mentality of I’ll do my best at tournaments because I’m a realist knowing I wasn’t going to win but now that I have some execution down and some experience…I now go for the win not just top 8 or 3 but 1…I went to Nor Cal for the experience but also to win… and in my match against Dagger he beat me like no-ones business (I didn’t get a round) that was my own personal wake up that yeah I’m better now but I have more to go and I’m going to get there.
Edit: saw some of the early posts about SF4 before it hit console and the hype it brought with SFIV rules the world…I hop Super4 brings back some of that hype.
Someone once told me they thought I talked too much shit when I win, which really confused me because this wasn’t someone I knew very well at all, and I had never talked any shit to this person.
I told them I don’t do it to stroke my ego or anything, I do it to try and get that fury burning inside you so you can beat this stupid little Guile player talking shit to you.
I miss the days of regular tournaments so bad, having something in the immediate future that you can look forward to is a HUGE motivator.
While we were playing ST at Keith’s a couple weeks ago, I noticed how far everyone had fallen since the glory days. Now I know everyone has been focusing on SF4, so it’s to be expected, but I hardly even had to try to win. I don’t mean to sound like a prick, but people just straight up weren’t playing with the same intensity that they used to. I didn’t feel the same pressure I used to feel against Julian’s Balrog, Nate’s Gief, or even Keith’s Claw. I’m not calling you guys out or anything, but it was extremely obvious who was still playing this game seriously and who wasn’t. The only person whose game I still recognized was Julien, which doesn’t surprise me.
I am HUNGRY for ST, but there’s nothing to eat around here anymore. Feed me. Or let me feed you.
(yeah this thread was about sf4, but what are you gonna do about it?)
This thread has gone the wrong way (as I assumed it would) by far and I don’t think I’m going to partake in it any more. I created the thread to act as a wakeup call to the scene, explaining that this scene has major issues regarding competitive mentality and spirit. From the reactions that I’ve been given here, it’s clear that my last statement was more true than ever…that the greater Seattle scene is not ready to be competitive.
Hunger is one thing, but action speaks louder than empty words. Bokkin you may do things for you, but when have you EVER done anything for this community? I feel that it’s pretty fucking nasty that I get shit for telling you all the reason why our scene fails when unbeknownst to you, you do nothing about it. Not once was I saying that I’m BETTER than anyone because of my skill…what I’m saying is that this scene’s got a problem when it’s not pushing it’s community to do better.
So for all those that want to judge me…for bringing this up, a personal fuck you goes out to them. Judge me for something you don’t even understand…I guess it’s better to understand that Seattle just isn’t ready to be competitive and leave it at that.
^i haven’t done stuff yet but I’m lookin at places…a denny’s near me has a VIP room for pretty cheap and I want to get at the GC/PnT guys this week. I saw I’m not doing anything and after seeing eman and ejdge (mad props) doin stuff I’m lookin to contribute as well…I haven’t yet but want to…my housing is small and a max of 7 people could be here which I’ve had a few people over before and with 5 it was pretty good. My roomie is gonna be out flying for months so I will be having sessions then otherwise it’s her house so she limits my session times/days/people…don’t forget there will be a lot of session come this spring SSF4 Bokkin akuma will be in effect.
Why don’t you try to help us see why? Too much hostility? I don’t understand how it’s helping to get people to start seeing why then dip out of the thread. It isn’t worth at least trying? I value your opinion but other than our mentality needs to change what else can we do? Have more sessions and tournaments, yeah. What can you do to help us achieve that? Don’t give up hope just 'cause some of us are very stubborn.
When you start start a thread and start asking questions and criticizing people, even if you are doing it constructively and with the best intentions, things are not just going to play out just like you saw them, and you aren’t going to immediately get the amazing groundbreaking feedback you wanted.
Giving up after only 33 posts and not even 12 hours of your thread being open isn’t commitment towards anything. It takes a lot more time to change peoples minds, or even get them thinking. And personally, I’ve seen some great posts in this thread. Even if it wasn’t what you were going for right away, why don’t you try to work with it. Don’t walk away just because things didn’t play out perfectly in 8 hours. That is a staggeringly short amount of time between having fire for something and walking away from it.
While I think you have some good ideas Mickey, and your intentions are probably to help, the way you phrase things is really random. You use a lot of “us, we, the scene, seattle” when you should just be speaking for yourself instead of acting as if your opinion represented the majority or collective.
You also use a lot of condescending language and demeaning/insulting type language. You may have had people following you but just get turned off because you chose to talk down to them or get insulting. This is the reason you and I no longer talk in the first place, and the reason I got pissed off at you.
You seemed like a really positive person when I hung out with you in real life. Maybe I misjudged you, maybe things have changed. I don’t know. I don’t have an intention to argue with you or have drama, but theres a bar for civility when you deal with people. If you can’t manage to at least talk like an adult to people, then you’re going to rub people the wrong way.
I feel like because you put in so much effort or do this or that, that you think it entitles you to say whatever you want, or tell people to do whatever you want. Instead of thinking about it that way, maybe just lead by example. Work really hard and if they follow, great. You take for granted the scene and the people who are friends with you or respect you once you start getting up on a pedestal and eventually you’ll be preaching to an empty church.
If you really want to get things moving, post real, actual things that you think would help people, and get a discussion on that. How can we get more get togethers, what are people struggling with, how can we more efficiently commute to tournaments, etc. Being vague and telling people they’re simply “not trying” or “don’t want to win” when they are working hard or putting in practice, feels like a slap in the face to the work they’ve put in. Even if someone hasn’t put in as much work as they could, you should try pushing people with positive encouragement, rather than shaming them.
These are my thoughts, sorry if I offended anyone.
This right here is why it went wrong, by the way. I guarantee it, whether you believe it or not. You subconsciously made it happen with your phrasing if you had that in mind.
Hey, since this topic came up I thought I’d throw out an idea I’ve been considering for a few days now.
I think we should do a study on success percentage with links by frame, IE 1,2 and 4 frame links etc.
I think this would be a good way to see with some relatively stable data just how much you should measure the risk versus reward of links by character. I mean, alot of you already have a pretty good idea of this by simply playing your main for a long ass time, but I think it would be really beneficial for us to have a hard number to look at to really think about how much we want to use certain links versus others.
Ideally I would like to have a list of every characters link, by frames ( Im thinking 1-5?), and then an average success percentage for each one. We’d have to get a pretty big sample size to make this relevant though.
I’ve spent the last few days thinking of how to keep the methods somewhat organized and consistent so that the data has at least some significant meaning, but its complicated, especially with how people use different controllers and have varying input lag on their tvs.
Edit: I wanted to do this initially because I hypothesized that 1 frame links would have a significantly lower success rate than 2 frame links, especially when comparing 2 frame links to anything higher. This of course would vary by character because some have gaps of time before the link becomes available, like El Fuerte, which will be a whole nother deal to work out later. However, as I began to think about it, it seemed like it would be a very good way to help our scene and anyone else who was interested be able to measure the risk and reward of their links.
