This thread is for documenting and discussing Poison’s setups, okizeme, set play, whatever you’d like to call it. Please share any findings you have.
Here’s my initial lab work regarding post-combo/knockdown situations. If you have any comments, observations, or suggestions just let me know.
Keep in mind you most likely can’t use AE setups against people who can avoid meaty fireballs. For comparison, characters were tested against back throw, meaty HP AE. (Be aware of the variance between situations and timing; generally, the earlier you can do HP AE, the better. Adjust your play on a matchup-to-matchup, setup-to-setup basis.)
Instances where you’d be punished for doing this setup are in bold. Instances where you can punish them for trying something are italicized. Some moves are not bolded or italicized at all, meaning that either they just end up escaping the setup, or they may or may not punish you depending on your HP AE timing. Try out things for yourself and draw your own conclusions.
Abel (EX Change of Direction, EX Wheel Kick, EX Marseilles Roll, HP Super, Ultra 1 Soulless, Ultra 2 Breathless)
Adon (EX Jaguar Kick, EX Jaguar Tooth, Super, Ultra 1 Jaguar Revolver)
Akuma (EX Goshoryu, Ashura Senku, Ultra 2 Demon Armageddon)
Balrog (Boxer) (Any EX dash punch, Buffalo Headbutt, Turn Around Punch, Super, Ultra 1 Violent Buffalo)
Blanka (Coward Crouch, EX Vertical Roll) Ultra 1 Lightning Cannonball, Ultra 2 Shout of Earth)
C. Viper (LP Thunder Knuckle, Ultra 1 Burst Time)
Cammy (EX Spiral Arrow, EX Quick Spin Knuckle, Super, Ultra 1 Gyro Drive Smasher)
Chun-Li (EX Hazanshu, Super, Ultra 1 Hosenka, Ultra 2 Kikosho)
Cody (Zonk Knuckle, EX Zonk Knuckle, Super, Ultra 1 Final Destruction, Ultra 2 Last Dread Dust)
Dan (EX Koryuken, Ultra 1 Shissho Buraiken)
Decapre (MP Psycho Sting, Super, Ultra 2 DCM [reversal])
Deejay (EX Double Rolling Sobat, Super, Ultra 1 Sobat Festival)
Dhalsim (Yoga Teleport, Super, Ultra 1 Yoga Catastrophe)
Dudley (Ducking, Ultra 1 Rolling Thunder)
E. Honda (EX Sumo Smash, Super, Ultra 1 Ultimate Killer Head Ram)
El Fuerte (EX Habanero Dash, EX Quesadilla Bomb [Can EX WoL punish this at this distance?])
Elena (EX Scratch Wheel, EX Rhino Horn, Super, Ultra 1 Brave Dance)
Evil Ryu (EX Shoryuken, Ashura Senku, Ultra 2 Messatsu-Goshoryu)
Fei Long (EX Chickenwing, Super, Ultra 1 Rekkashingeki)
Gen (MP Super Zan’ei, EX Jyasen, EX Oga)
Gouken (EX Hyakkishu, MP/EX Kongoshin, Super)
Guile (EX Flash Kick)
Guy (EX Bushin Senpukyaku, EX Bushin Flip, EX Run, Ultra 1 Bushin Goraisenpujin)
Hakan (Oiled EX Oil Rocket, EX Oil Shower, EX Oil Slide, HK Super)
Hugo (EX Monster Lariat, EX Meat Squasher, Ultra 1 Gigas Breaker)
Ibuki (EX Neckbreaker, Ultra 2 Hashinsho)
Juri (EX Senpusha, EX Kasatushi)
Ken (EX Shoryuken, Ultra 2 Guren Senpukyaku)
M. Bison (Dictator) (EX Psycho Crusher, EX Double Knee Press, EX Head Press/Devil Reverse, Teleport, Super, Ultra 2 Psycho Punisher [beware of crossup??])
Makoto (EX Karakusa, HK Ultra 2 Abare Tosanami)
Oni (EX Goshoryuken, EX Sekisei Jiraiken, EX Rakan Dantojin [watch the crossup], Ultra 1 Meiho Gohado [projectile cancels out], Ultra 2 Tenchi Sokaigen)
Poison (EX LMT, Backflip, Super [not all hits will connect], Ultra 1 Love Storm [projectile cancels out])
Rolento (Stinger jump, Mekong Delta Escape, Super, Ultra 2 Take No Prisoners [reversal])
Rose (EX Soul Spiral, EX Soul Reflect, Super, Ultra 1 Illusion Spark,
Rufus (EX Messiah Kick, EX Snake Strike, Ultra 1 Space Opera Symphony, Ultra 2 Big Bang Typhoon)
Ryu (EX Shoryuken, Super [Trade into full damage for Ryu], Ultra 1 Metsu Hadoken)
Sagat (HP/EX Tiger Uppercut, Ultra 1 Tiger Destruction, Ultra 2 Tiger Cannon)
Sakura (EX Shouoken, Super, Ultra 1 Haru Ranman, Ultra 2 Shinkuu Hadoken)
Seth (EX Shoryuken, EX Hyakuretsukyaku, Yoga Teleport, Super, Ultra 1 Tandem Stream, Ultra 2 Tandem Typhoon)
T. Hawk (EX Condor Spire)
Vega (EX Rolling Crystal Flash, Backflip, Ultra 1 Bloody High Claw, Ultra 2 Splendid Claw)
Yang (EX Kaihou, EX Senkyutai, Ultra 1 Raishin Mahhaken, Ultra 2 Tenshin Senkyutai)
Yun (Ultra 2 Sorai Rengeki)
Zangief (EX Banishing Flat, Double Lariat [punches], EX Running Bear Grab)
After AA cr. HP:
- xx HP AE (use cr. HP xx HP AE as AA, buffered as one motion). Should hit meaty, preventing jumps. May or may not lose to reversals depending on spacing.
- LP AE (you don’t have to cancel cr. HP… which is pretty hard to do when twitch AAing…) You recover fast enough to DP a jump-in. They can neutral jump but it just puts you back to neutral game.
- HK LMT. Loses to reversals, neutral jump, backdash. If you have been using LP AE well, you should beat their block (get in at -1) or focus (armor breaking).
- HP AE. Should punish their neutral jump. Juggle them or whatever.
(Apparently the spacing can differ for AA cr. HP; you can end up very close to the opponent if they have a “short jump”, e.g. Guile or Makoto, or depending on the distance the opponent jumps in. I’ll check this out later.)
After LMT throw/EX:
- Backdash, MP AE. Safe, but not much else. If they jump in DP them.
- Backdash, HK LMT. I’d like to assume that using the above option sets this up.
- Walk back, HP AE.
May lose to reversal DP based on your spacing, DWU, etc. Neutral jumps should land right on top of the projectile. Follow up with HK LMT, forward dash cr. MK xx MP WoL or f. MP, LP/EX AE… What else can you think of?
- Forward dash twice and cl. HP or throw. You could just walk forward too. Standard meaty/throw mixup, nothing special. f. MP/cr. LK is an option too.
- Whiff immediate cr. LP into meaty j. LK crossup. Safe against Ryu’s reversal DP (but not against autocorrect MP DP). DWU wrecks this, of course. I think it’s best used sparingly.
After WoL:
- Backdash, HP AE. Loses to Ryu’s EX DP (only 1 hit), but beats the rest clean. Situation is the same as LMT above. Neutral jump can avoid it. If you anticipate the neutral jump, try a walk-forward DP.
- Backdash, MP AE. Stops neutral jumps. Loses to some reversals, as HP AE does. You won’t get a combo from this at all unless you FADC cr. MK xx MP WoL (you have to commit to this pretty hard).
- Meaty/throw/f. MP/cr. LK/cr. MK mixup. Eh, I can’t think of anything else.
- Walk forward, f. MP will corpsehop if you need to escape a corner or something. Immediate backdash after this is relatively safe.
- Forward dash, back dash, [f. MP, cr. LP xx LP WoL]. (Thanks @Ramma). Loses to reversals. Careful, you can’t really mix this with a low due to different timing- so hope that your dashes don’t telegraph your intentions…
- Forward dash, neutral jump HK (Thanks @Wonder_Chef). A safe jump, safe against 4 frame reversals. Watch for DWU.
After EX WoL, j. HP (hit them on the way up to stay close):
- Most options lose to reversal.
- f. MP. Loses to lv. 1 focus, focus backdash (iffy), focus forward dash DP (tight, hard to do).
- cr. MK. Loses to throw (tight), backdash (seems like just an escape, no punish), trades with 3-frame crouch techs (plink jab tech, etc.). OS into whatever you like (WoL hit confirm, AE, LMT, etc.) or just leave it alone based on how the opponent reacts.
- cr. LK… is not an option, you’ll probably push yourself out of st. MK range after two lights.
- Walk-up throw.
- You may be able to immediately j. LK crossup, but it depends on where you hit your j. HP. I wouldn’t rely on it.
After sweep:
- Immediate HP AE (the closer you landed the sweep to tip range, the safer). Not really a setup, you just get to walk behind it and stuff.
- Forward jump, HK/LK (Thanks @Wonder_Chef). A safe jump, safe against 4 frame reversals. Watch for DWU.
After focus crumple:
- Dash in, late cr. HP xx HK LMT (Thanks @Wonder_Chef). Do the cr. HP as late as you can (after their knees hit the ground?) Done properly, LMT should hit meaty- follow with a cl. HP or cl. HK xx WoL or whatever you like. This setup just about doubles your damage (compare [lv. 2 focus, cl. HP xx WoL 268 damage] vs [lv. 2 focus, cr. HP 170 damage + LMT, cl. HP xx WoL 305 damage = 475 damage) but you’re gonna lose to reversals and such. Given how slow LMT is, I’d say use it sparingly.
After forward throw:
- Whiff st. LP (mash it), HP AE. Might even cover DWU, there is almost no reason not to do this… It’s very safe against a lot, if not all projectile invincible reversals, too (Decapre’s DCM cannot punish). Follow with HK LMT, forward dash cr. MK, etc., etc.
- HP AE with early timing, walk forward and throw again (Thanks @Wonder_Chef). This’ll only realistically work if you’ve been manually timing HP AE, instead of whiffing a move first.
- Immediate st. LK, st. MK, forward jump HK. A safe jump. Safe against 4-frame reversals. Watch for DWU.
- Immediate MP WoL (x1), neutral jump LK. (Thanks @livecho) A safe jump. Safe, even against 3-frame Shoryuken- but the neutral jump LK is just for looks and can’t connect. Use sparingly.
- Immediate EX AE, forward jump LK. (Thanks @livecho) A safe jump crossup. Safe against 4-frame reversals- but you just burned your valuable meter for it! Use sparingly.
- Jump forward over their body, then jump back to safety. (Just hold that direction for two jumps, basically.) A way to escape the corner.
After back throw:
- Immediate HP AE. Covers DWU. Can be neutral jumped if the HP AE is done too late, but otherwise the situation is the same as forward throw. If you anticipate the neutral jump, just walk forward and st. HK them out of it. (Thanks SWAG KING YOLO)
After U1:
- Jump forward, HK. This can’t actually hit, but it’s safe against reversal Shoryuken. One time bait, I suppose.
- Immediate LP AE. I think you might get this for free.
After U2:
- You get nothing. Good day sir
No, but really, the spacing is awkward, and the opponent wakes up really fast. I would just backdash and play keepaway, or just try to play neutral if I needed to keep attacking.
In the corner:
After WoL:
- Backdash, MP AE. (Thanks @Clamper.) You get a mixup with [f. MP, cr. LP xx LP WoL] or [cr. MK xx MP WoL]. The cr. MK will combo; the f. MP will not (it can, but your timing has to be very tight). Your opponent may or may not be able to reversal through, character specific.
After EX WoL:
- late cr. HP xx any LMT (Thanks Jon Slayton). Hits meaty. Will lose to reversals.
- forward jump cancel, late j. HK, forward dash (crossunder).
Risky, as crossunders are. You should have enough advantage to beat out 3-frame jabs if timed correctly.
- Juggle HP WoL into the WoL corner setup above.
HOLD
HOLD
HOLD
Meaty fireball set ups:
Forward throw, small step forward, hp FB
Back throw, hp FB (doesn’t work well midscreen, FB won’t hit, best in the corner)
Rekka (x3), dash back, hp FB (best in corner, midscreen works more as a shield to dash forward after the hp FB and continue pressure)
Flip kick+follow up, hp FB
Many potential follow up pressure options include but are not limited to:
Cr.mk
Overhead (f+mp)
Flip kick
Ex flip kick
Rekka
Ex Rekka
Fireball
Ex Fireball
Sweep
Throw
Bait (block or backflip)
Obviously depending on spacing you may need to dash forward depending on the option
This truly is poisons most advantageous part of her game. Utilizing her zoning to gain ex meter while pushing the opponent into the corner and setting up her ridiculous frame advantage traps.
Example, midscreen, you get the knockdown, set up a meaty hp FB, dash up, Cr. Mk xx ex flip kick. Now this isn’t a block string so it can be reversaled in between, but it’s not something you can do on reaction so the opponent has to mash it pre empetively, so you can mix in some baits. I digress, so now let’s look at the options, if the opponent tries to dash or focus or do a normal, your going to land a nice hard knockdown again and reset the situation while moving towards the corner. If they block they are at -2 giving you good frame advantage to set up a CH or a tick throw or set up another string back into ex flip kick, rinse and repeat. You want to mix in some baits and some rekkas and ex fb’s as well to not become predictable. And for most match ups you can always reset back to full screen zoning again to end the round with the life lead
After Forward Throw, especially in the corner, wiff standing MP into HP AE/Fireball whatever it is lol. It covers delayed wakeup as well and if they get hit, you can react low forward while walking forward to combo.
Good thread man. I’ll leave the video i made to ilustrate a bit of her corner vortex (yes, Poison has a vortex!). I’ll make a video with better quality and showing more situations later.
Poison’s okizeme are godlike!
In the corner the opponent can’t neutral jump out of it btw, he’ll get hit in the pre-jump frames.
Periodically updating second post with characters that can avoid meaty fireballs.
If anyone would like to assist that’d be great. Try to get the back throw, HP AE timing as tight as you can when testing, as it means the difference between getting punished and blocking.
If you have formatting suggestions to make it easier to read, let me know.
With backthrow, :hp: Aeolus Edge, against Guy.
-Ultra 1 with the latest timing on the fireball, the fireball will trade but Guy gets only a single hit with the Ultra.
-EX Shoulder gets stuffed
-EX flip works but he can get cr. :hp: for free.
-EX Bushin Kicks is out of range to punish…and can be punished with stand :mk:
-EX Run stop gets him out the mix up, the other follow ups are iffy.
-Backdash will get him out of :hp: fireball, but the other fireballs will catch him, you must delay if you using EX to catch the backdash.
-Focus to backdash is pretty viable here. Thing is, you can… :hk: LMT to catch his backdash if he does. Depending on how close you are to him when he focuses the fireball, you can break the focus with low :mk: , or even Ultra1.
-Neutral jump is tricky because you must do it as soon as possible, the fireball with hill him in his initial jump frames and float him in a juggle state. :hk: LMT, :hp: WoL and Ultra 1 will all connect afterwards.
I thats what I found for that particular setup…against guy.
Honestly all this stuff can go into the Matchup thread in a second post.
Especially if there are specific setups I had a hold post for all this stuff.
The more threads the more cluttered the forum gets and hard to find things.
@Arkayne17 You’re welcome to copy and paste… I made this thread because @therook suggested the info should be easier to find in a separate thread, but if you believe it belongs in the matchup topic feel free to take the info.
I need to document at the least EX WoL in the corner (and hopefully other corner stuff), along with the rest of the anti-meaty fireball list, and some more AA situations… I’ll tag you when I think I’m done updating everything.
I know delayed wakeup is in the game, but if they don’t delay wakeup:
Rekkas > Forward Dash > Neutral Jump lets you do a safe jump HK or LK or whatever.
Sweep > Forward Jump is also a safe jump. I usually use LK for this, because it crosses up sometimes.
Both are safe against 4 frame reversals and SUUUUUUPER easy to do. I’ve gotten tons of mileage out of these.
After forward throw in the corner you can do a meaty fireball a little bit early so that it whiffs right through their back, then throw them again. It’s really deceiving.
I have tested crossup setups with her Flip Kick and as far as I can see that move can’t ever cross up. Even if it hits them in the back you can forward block it.
Focus Crumple > Delayed cr.HP xx HK Flip Kick will make the Flip Kick really meaty, but I don’t really know how that’s much better than finishing the combo and ending in another setup…
Certain moves cancelled into HK Flip Kick will whiff over their head, which has gotten me a few surprise throws. Gimmicky but who knows! I think cl.HK and cl.HP work for this, but I don’t remember.
Mostly gimmicky stuff but the safe jumps are hella solid.
Ok Awesome, I will.
After ex rekka the best follow up I think is hp rekka (ultra aside)
Now like ultra, outside the corner I think it’s character specific. So in a situation where your midscreen and ultra and hp rekka won’t hit, a follow up ex flip kick (if you have the bar) is a great follow up for damage and the meaty hp fb follow up to maintain pressure and corner push
Remember guys if you want to beat delayed wake up if you safe jump, just add cr.lp since its exactly 11 frames.
In my opinion, any situation where you can do a safe jump, the better option is the meaty FB. It causes chip, and a high low mix up of f+mp or cr.mk
And dwu doesn’t help against her meaty hp Fb. It either hits meatier or sets up the opponent for a dash up throw if it whiffs.
It’s far more easier then hoping you hit a perfect dwu frame kill
After a forward throw, most people do instant jab or cr.mp but honestly, just a step forward is better, I’ve just been exaggerating the input of hp FB and I get closer while being just as meaty. So when I do it poison takes a step forward, crouches then does the FB.
timing cr.jab isn’t that hard if you double tap it early in your dash. I mix up meaty fireball and safe jumps especially if someone is back dashing or has a reversal to escape.
mostly i do go for meaty fireball though and see how he reacts.