soggy hugo needs to hit like a truck in order to be viable at all
Should shrink hurt box of upper body back behind the clap so that all of the hand portion of his clap can nullify projectiles, but keep lower body the same so he can still be punished with sweep for whiffing.
Make leap attack with MP instead so you don’t get BB on accident.
Make EX lariat and MS activate from at least 1 (2 might be too much) character length away so that it beats throw and jab mash, should take care of those strange normals that recover in time like command overhead from Elena. Might be too much but put one hit of armor on the attack part of lariat, seeing as how Abel and Rog gets armor on the active part of the move I don’t see why Hugo shouldn’t either.
Would make ultra throw keep you cornered (Like 3S) instead of thrown out of corner.
Would make either SPD or MS throw invul on start up (Pretty sure I was thrown out of start up on SPD before)
Make super more useable (Right now it is combo only pretty much) should make it proj invul through out and the run portion itself an attack.
I’d also like to see them put the old frames on block and hit back to the Palms. In 3s and SfxT LP Palm alone was +10 on block, I think that would help his pressure game significantly.
f.hp doesn’t need armour but it should get a hit box adjustment to make it actually worth using in a few situations over st.hp for AA. Adding armour wouldn’t improve it compared to st.hp because it doesn’t hit crouching players and you’d only need it to punish far neutral jumps or back jumps over st.hp.
If they’re going to replace a move, they should swap st.hk with dd.mk and remove the unique input otherwise just make the move not suck balls.
The input problem with Meat Squasher is more about how kick buttons are used for 4 moves and punch only applies to 2. Lariat should be changed to a punch input or Back Breaker should be so its an even 3 and 3. I personally do 360 shortcuts going f,d,b,u so I get Ultra Throws when I fuck up.
Meat Squasher>st.mp is damn hard to time considering how Hugo spends most of his recovering with his idle animation, he deserves the damage for getting it.
This.
Exactly this.
I tend to time the st.mp now as soon as the opponent is around the waist area of Hugo, it helps, but it is so annoying that he just stands there and this should be his “recovery animation”, would it have been so hard to make him do a little landing flinch to emphasize he is recovering? Looks so weird when he stands there, doing nothing, you press a button, wuups, still nothing.
The more I play Hugo, the more I get the feeling he isnt as bad as people say he is. Sure, probably never hightier, but top 3-5 worst character in the game? His st.lk has enormous reach and sets up nasty mixups from midrange, closerange is absolutely favorable for grapplers. The only real (and horrendous) problem is long range and that is, only against certain character like gouken, juri, dhalsim, guile… heavy zoners or characters with nasty projectiles, to sum it up.
Yet I dont know what he should “get” or improve to make that Long range game easier… maybe slightly reduce headhurtbox, so we dont have to block/ crouch under mp fireballs from gouken fullscreen away… I mean, really?? Other than just getting hit by too much stuff while airborne, Hugo seems to be ‘fine yet unexplored’, i could bet there is stuff to be discovered that lets him “climb the tiers” if you want
It’s simple. Hugo should have an overall damage tone down and make dd+mk and claps much better for dealing with fireballs. They should give him fireball invul in the front half of his body during the entire clap animation except for a portion of the startup, and make his entire body except for his head completely fireball invul during dd+mk except again during a portion of the startup.
In exchange he should have an overall damage reduction on some key moves. St.mp doesn’t need to do 120, it should do 100 but maybe increase the horizontal range a bit. His crouching shorts and jabs should be 40 damage but reduced to 4 frame startup. Meat squasher should deal 180 damage. MS, st.mp is still 280 damage and auto-corner which is hella beafy, more than some supers.
lk.backbreaker should deal 140 damage but have startup invul to give Hugo a reaction meterless AA option to beat multihitting moves. All other grapplers have this.
Everything else should remain as damaging as they currently are however.
I dont quite see this, claps dont need to be the ultimate anti fb weapon, if they were that good, fb against Hugo would be completely meaningless outside of pokerange. Fullscreen fb would actually serve Hugo for metergain, also it moves you Forward. Throw 5 fbs and there Hugo is ,suddenly right in your face. Neither claps nor dd+mk “need” these buffs.
[quote=“mowr, post:86, topic:169681”]
In exchange he should have an overall damage reduction on some key moves. St.mp doesn’t need to do 120, it should do 100 but maybe increase the horizontal range a bit. His crouching shorts and jabs should be 40 damage but reduced to 4 frame startup. Meat squasher should deal 180 damage. MS, st.mp is still 280 damage and auto-corner which is hella beafy, more than some supers.
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This would actually nerf Hugo more than necessary, reducing damage all over the board just to have a better long range antifireball game doesnt seem to be a good trade. I mean, honestly, his fb game isnt THAT bad. There are like 4 characters that shut down Hugo at long range; Dhalsim, Gouken, Guile and Juri.
The other fb characters (even Sagat) can be dealt with. Patience is key in these matches.
Even Zangief has an anti-fb move with his green hand, but it is purposely designed to nullify either slow fbs Fullscreen or nullify on prediction, you shouldnt be able to reliably negate every fb that comes at you, that’d be broken.
[quote=“mowr, post:86, topic:169681”]
lk.backbreaker should deal 140 damage but have startup invul to give Hugo a reaction meterless AA option to beat multihitting moves. All other grapplers have this.
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pls dont.
decrease startup of crouch hp to 9-10f and give that move a purpose instead of implementing another invincible move, seriously, im tired of every second move in the game being either throw or hit invincible.
Actually, all his damage is fine. He has to work to get high numbers and that is great.
There are very few things more satiscatory than punishing a blocked hp shoryuken with a heavy clap combo for 450 damage with only one ex bar and even gain perfect positioning afterwards.
After all, Hugo is a grappler, he is more or less supposed to be crappy at longranges / against fireballs but devastating in closequarters. I prefer a grappler that is devastating at close and horrible at long range over one that is “just ok” at every range.
Do you just like playing bad half finished characters or?
Have you tried clapping a fireball lately? If you have then you’ll know Hugo’s hitbox expands out RIDICULOUSLY on startup. I’m asking for that to be pulled back so you can actually use to it counter fireballs. That’s it.
Also, if you think that Juri, Gouken, Dhalsim and Guile are the only ones that completely shut down Hugo, you haven’t played a good Rose or Poison, both far more garbage unfair matchups than Dhalsim could ever hope to be. BTW, you can be as patient as you want. Doesn’t stop Sagat vs. Hugo from being an 8-2.
But being able to clap each and every fb, whenever you want because you’re basically projectile invulnerable with whatever you do will turn sagat vs hugo easily into 8-2 … for Hugo.
What does Sagat have against Hugo except for fb zoning? st. hk loses against st.hp and cr.mp from Hugo easily, you can even sweep sagat on reaction with cr.mk… If sagat cant use fbs to Zone you, Hugo just walks him into the Corner, negating fireballs on his way there and there is nothing sagat could do against it.
And yes, I tried to clap fireballs lately. It’s perfectly fine and doable if you have the read / prediction. Just like it was with zangief in ae2012, you could only cancel fireballs with lp greenhand if you’ve seen it coming and that is ok.
Just try to imagine what would happen if Hugo could easily cancel all fireballs with lp claps.
You could walk ever character into the corner and by the time they have enough meter for an ex fb, you just ex lariat right through it because you build absurd amounts of meter while walking them down.
It’s perfectly fine to think of stuff to improves Hugos anti fb game, but claps being projectile immune in the front is too much.
normal greenhands from gief arent projectile immune either.
And I dont understand why you would want dd+mk to be “more” projectile immune… do you try to avoid akumas air fireballs with that or what? Only thing that I could come to terms with would be to increase Hugos forward momentum of the hop, so he can pass through slow fireballs from guile / rose / sim.
I mean no offense at all, it’s just that I think your approach with claps would end up way to strong
Clap does need to be buffed against fireballs in some way, its 15 frames of start up make it kind of shit when doing so and AE2012’s Green Hand was only 11 frames. I’m more inclined to maybe expand its active frames by 2 along the lines of 14/6/11 or give it a few frames of projectile inv. before it hits active so Hugo has some leeway against fireball characters.
Sagat won’t be too badly effected because he’ll still have his long ass normals to zone Hugo with like st.hk and st/cr.mk, his zoning isn’t just fireballs. There are other changes that could help him out though like making st.mp longer to help counterhit fireballs mid screen or making EX Lariat more than just an AA by speeding it up.
God where do I start.
We don’t want to make Hugo unbeatable or have unrealistic changes… so.
Me, I would definitely change his hit boxes when jumping, Hugo needs all the help he can get when dealing with zoning fireball pressure.
Then I would make the cr jab > jab clap a true block string, like the cr short > short lariat already is.
Those are the two changes that would help him the most IMO.
Sagat vs Hugo 8-2 ??? Try 9-1 or even 10-0 it’s crazy.
Lets look at his match-ups shall we…
Sagat 10-0
Jury 10-0
Dhalsim 9-1
Rose 8-2
Gouken 9-1
Poison 10-0
Guile 8-2
Ryu 8-2
Ken 8-2
Dan 7-3
Ehonda 8-2
Rolento 9-1
Elena 7-3
Decapre 9-1
Blanka 7-3
The only good match-ups for Hugo are
Hugo 5-5
Zangief 6-4
Bison 6-4
Hugo is a ridiculously bad character and he does need help from Capcom.
Sagat is not worse than Guile or Rose. At least you can jump in to punish a bad fireball from him, unlike Guile. And at least he can’t shut down every move you have other than EX Lariat on wake-up, like Rose.
No. just no.
Decapre and Rolento are highly in favor of Hugo, Nemo even said that Hugo is one of rolento’s hardest match-ups. There isn’t a single match 10-0. Honda is slightly in favor of hugo, Dan is in favor of hugo. Ryu and ken aren’t as bad as Guile. Blanka isn’t that hard to deal with. Zangief and bison aren’t in favor of hugo. That entire list is extremely flawed.
And where is Chun-li, DJ, Akuma, Seth in all of this?
This is false as well, çr.lk into lariat isn’t a block string.
I don’t think his matchups are that bad, i just feel that certain parts of the matchups are incredibly in the other opponents favor even if it’s 6-4, most of it stems from the neutral game IMO, not when you’ve knocked them down and you get Oki, but the match up until that point.
In the neutral game a lot of his tools can be rendered useless really fast given the opponent has enough character knowledge. I think those 6-4 matchups like dictator really offer a peek into how he can be improved; Hugo needs changes that affect his meta game with those 6-4 matchups. Like If Hugo jumps in on Juri with j.hp and she AA’s with a fireball cool, Hugo jumps in with j.hk, Juri’s AA fireball may hit, but it’ll trade since j.hk has projectile invincibility so Juri has to use normals or ex.pinwheel. But because of his hurtbox, pinwheel and normals will always work, and his ability to empty jump Juri just doesn’t work since she’s so narrow and her other AA’s have really good hitboxes. And i’m not saying that Hugo should be jumping in on Juri, but the fact that she can pin him to the ground from the neutral game and he has to walk to get in but can’t because he can’t duck under her AA fireballs etc.
I think some matchups are simply tough because the other character can control the pace of the match. Like Bison’s st.hk although punishable by ex.lariat, beats all of Hugo’s solid options. Hugo can’t build meter safely against most charge characters also. I think his changes should be centered around making his options a tad more dynamic so that they can’t be absolutely shut down in the neutral game. I’m all for turtling and taking small steps forward, but if he doesn’t have a fully invincible special that moves forward, he needs something else to let him close the gap whether defensively or offensively. Something as simple as increased walk speed or better hurtboxes on one or two jumping attacks.
I wouldn’t want them to change Hugo too much, because his playstyle is really fun as it is. If they go through and fix ALL his weird stuff like jump HK massive hurtbox, standing HK whiffing crouchers, clap not working on projectiles very well, etc., then they might think “uh oh, that’s too much…better lower his godlike U2 damage to even it out”. And, that would ruin him for me. If they start fiddling around with him too much, then he might be “better”…but, less fun.
I’d fix just one thing:
Make his ex lariat do more block stun, so that he can FADC it more safely on block (they can increase the recovery so that it’s still punishable without FADC if they insist). That would be a huge help, and it wouldn’t make him broken. Its costs 3 meters, after all. But, it would give him a way to get in and give him a little mix-up in the process. I mean, as it currently stands, he has to basically guess to use it. Fine. He’s a read heavy character. But, at least give him a costly option to make it a little safer.
I’ve updated my change list:
Diagonal and neutral jumping hurtboxes for empty jumps overall reduced. Some jumping attack hurtboxes should probably get taken a look at, especially J.Hk.
Hp.Clap damage 110 -> 100.
EX.Clap damage 130 -> 110.
Lk.Monster Lariat damage 100 -> 80. Block advantage -11 -> -5. Will now reliably combo from further.
Mk and Hk Monster Lariat both sped up significantly (around Lk.Meat Squasher speed) and will release the clothesline from further out. Advantage on block -11 -> -7 for both versions.
EX.Monster Lariat damage 130 -> 110 and now has 2 hits of armour which last until the first active attack frame. Upon a successful connection, Hugo will follow through the opponent and switch sides in the same fashion as it’s 3S incarnation. This allows Hugo a risky corner escape option outside of EX.Back Breaker. The clothesline will also activate from further out meaning it will much more consistently connect after going through a fireball or long reaching 2 hit normals (Sagat’s St.Hk for example).
Cr.Lp and Cr.Lk damage 50 -> 40. Startup 5 -> 4 frames. Cr.Lp chains normally.
St.Hp damage 120 -> 100. Recovery 17 -> 14.
St.Mp damage 120 -> 90. Recovery 18 -> 14. Hitbox extended horizontally to hit at the fingertips.
St.Mk damage 50+50 -> 60+50. Startup 17 -> 15. Delay between two hits reduced significantly and will now reliably beat focus attacks.
Health and stun 1100 -> 1150.
Philosophy: Hugo is a lot of fun to play however he has some serious flaws that Capcom apparently tried to remedy by simply cranking his damage up to 11.
I wanted to bring his damage down to maybe around a 9, still maintaining his flaws for the most part, but giving him more reliable options when you correctly read your opponent. How many times have you guessed right that your opponent is going to release an EX fireball, tried to EX.Monster Lariat through and either got counterhit because the armour expired or even worse, had the clothesline blocked because it takes too long to come out?
^^
I agree with a lot if this stuff, but I don’t even think he needs such significant buffs to justify the damage nerfs.
The damage on c.lp/s.mp/c.mp/EX.Clap is just straight up whack and even if Hugo doesn’t get overhauled I expect these to get nerfs.
Do you want to explain why you don’t think Hugo needs a bit of matchup help in exchange for some damage nerfs?
I mean that the damage nerfs are really justifiable in their own right, not taking into account any of the other quirks with Hugo.
There are certainly “issues” with this character that need to be cleaned up, but the damage is really a completely separate issue.
Chainable jabs that do 50 damage each is really too high, which has nothing to do with getting in on Juri. And Meatsquasher combo for 320. And 130 dmg/200 stun on EX.Clap when you get two of em off of counterhit or juggle. Etc. Etc. Etc. One counterhit jab, an SPD and a few random pokes is enough to end the round. It feels like cheating.
You can’t say that absurdly high damage compensates for a near unwinnable matchup against Juri, because you only fight one character at a time in this game. Your Juri matchup stats are irrelevant when you fight against Cody.
The only serious things that should be “fixed” are:
Super that doesn’t have enough projectile invincibility to clear a fireball unless you have specific spacing and timing (maybe not so much to allow full screen punish, but it needs to be more forgiving). Either you wait too long and miss the punish, or you do it too early and get clipped by the fireball. Also, doing the feint makes you completely lose projectile invincibility which I’m almost certain is a mistake.
Short hop requires frame specific timing to clear some slow fireballs. (Rose/DeeJay)
Back side of jumping hurtbox gets clipped with fireballs even when you jump correctly.
Juri’s EX.Fireball hits crouching even when the regular at that angle doesn’t (probably an oversight).
Anything on top of this is just gravy. And surely getting these buffs/fixes is more than enough to justify severe damage nerfs.