[media=youtube]eFjY_9O4Mi8[/media]
Watch as Yang tries and tries, but simply cannot land a single cross-up.
Not trying to keep crying, just spreading visual info on the least quantifiable of his changes.
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](‘http://twitter.com/#!/haneyama_619’)
Yang is now a very random character, not strong, not weak, with a damage output ridiculous.It is a waste.
I really hope Capcom is going to reverse some crazy nerfs…
I want to know what you guys think is a complete character?
Yang currently has every tool in the game (except a fireball, though he has several fireball nullifiers) and can blow people up really good with any one single mistake, when he gets his safe offense going and most of the cast can do little about it until they’ve lost a good portion of their health. He can create this single mistake off virtually anything (throw a bad fireball? throw a bad poke? jump? have to block a fast dive kick? get hit by stand jab which is +8 on hit?, block a stand jab which hits crouchers? … block too long and get command grabbed?). I can think of no other character except maybe Yun who can get in his sweet spot from so many different opponent “mistakes”. Yang is scary from all ranges against 90% of characters. He also has an incredibly good wakeup game, so when you knock him down, your expected damage is less than against other characters.
I just don’t see how you can “buff all the characters to Yang’s level”. It just doesn’t compute. Characters by design simply cannot have all this shit. How are you going to give Blanka tools to compete with this? How are you going to give Rufus free meterless offense and make him scary from all ranges?
Characters need strengths where they shine, and then they need weaknesses where they can be exploited. The developers decided Yang had too many strengths and not enough weaknesses, and I can’t say I disagree with them. I also see no other design solution (that creates a fun game) than nerfing a few of the top characters and buffing some of the low tier (they’re nerfing Yun/Yang/Fei, adjusting Akuma’s vortex, taking a bit of damage off Viper and Makoto, and buffing the other 33 characters, pretty substantially in some cases). Like… I don’t see a way you can just buff all the characters to give them “every tool” to compete with Yun and Yang.
Also, can someone explain to me exactly what Yang cannot do in this new build? Here is what I see. Yang experts, please correct me where I’m wrong.
Things Yang can do:
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he still has a 3 frame low short. This designation built in with OS tech blows up a lot of offense all by itself (ask Abel). It also leads to tons and tons of knockdowns, setups, positioning, and corner pressure, depending on whatever the Yang player decides, especially if the opponent is standing which is often the case with a low poke (link to sweep, link to rekkas, link to MK DP, link to rekkas FADC -> launcher -> reset, link to rekkas FADC ultra).
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Yang can still built above-average meter with palm, which still has 10 (according to blog?) active frames and counter-hits for 200 (?) damage. It still has very little recovery after the active frames.
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Yang still has a good wakeup. Mixed with DP FADC (backdash if you insist), EX teleport, backdash, and block, he might be the hardest character to OS against.
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Yang can still punish full screen fireballs with EX DP or U2, arguably also HK DP (does the translation say HK DP is fireball invincible after the first 5 frames?)
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Yang still has a dive kick, with good block stun and combo potential, a reasonable height requirement, and very little delay on activation. He can change dive kicks to make anti-airs whiff, and he can jump and crossup with MK (despite the video HAV linked, I’m not convinced he’s lost his crossup, though people are still trying to figure out the new hitbox… other characters with “hard” crossups like Cammy j.LK can still make excellent use out of them when you program canned setups in).
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Yang still has safe jump setups off his forward throw, MK DP, which can also be ambiguous and sometimes unblockable.
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His best tool: Yang has free, free pressure off his rekkas. All his good low pokes (and stand short) cancel into rekkas which are safe on block, FADC for + a lot on block, and put a ton of characters into jail for a long time. You guys didn’t lose any frames on rekkas (amazingly).
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He didn’t lose any moves. I mean think about the tools he has… a dive kick, a command grab, a throw invincible teleport, a dragon punch (!), and a safe on block special that leads to a knockdown on a hit-confirm, all of them not crappy. He can DP FADC ultra, as well!
Things Yang used to be able to do, but no longer can:
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punish far-reaching moves that are -3f on block with stand short (though he can likely still get in and apply blocked pressure which is where Yang shines)
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punishes any and all fireballs with MK (arguably HK) DP. Okay. If you don’t have EX or U2 ready, you’ll have to deal with this a bit.
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DP FADC forward, Yang can no longer turn an instant full screen whiffed poke/fast fireball into a pressure situation. He can also no longer DP FADC forward on wakeup and turn safe jumps into pressure situation. I’m fine with this… he can still DP FADC backwards on wakeup (so he didn’t lose this as a “beats OSes” option). And Yang is, imo, THE scariest character in the game when he is in your face with frame advantage. So yes, other characters like Ryu (no longer Fei; he got nerfed here too) can DP FADC forward, but he’s not nearly as scary as Yang is in this spot.
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footsies overly well with MP HP target combo. I think Yang still has many options for footsies?
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press j.MK at any time in the air and crossup with it. I imagine he’ll be able to press it at a certain time and still crossup pretty effectively, even if players are still figuring that range out. I also think this change will probably be reverted, but we’re talking about the current build, so let’s just file this under “will probably still be pretty good with a bit of work in training mode”.
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kill people as easily when he gets in, with some damage nerfs. He lost 30 points of damage off his ultras (Abel lost 10% from vanilla to super, then 10% again, for something like 140 damage lost off U1… Gouken lost tons of damage off backthrow -> ultra, etc etc). 30 damage is next to nothing, especially considering you guys often combo into it, so the scaled damage will mean even less. I think damage on all 3 frame low shorts should be 20, personally… as I said above, having a move like that is a huge boon. Fortunately, I think Yang can stay ON an opponent with pressure as well as any character you can name in SSF4, so this damage nerf isn’t as big of a deal as it is to other characters who get in once and do damage, then need to get in again. Yang’s “expected” damage off getting in is still well above average, which is a nice complement to his tools.
I also don’t think America’s acceptance (or lackof) with Yang matters much. Yang is a top 3 character in a game with 39 characters, and the characters that “keep him in check” are basically just 5/5s (with one or two exceptions). I remember Azrael saying a lot of people in his local area quit the game because of Yang being too good. Kim1234 said the opinion in his local arcade was that Yang was #1 in the game and that it would become more apparent the longer AE lasted. The number of grandmaster Yangs in Japan is very high (as much as Fei iirc?)… they don’t need to be winning the crapshoot SBO to prove that Yang consistently wins. Strider seems to have evidence from Japanese players to support this as well.
tl;dr: So yeah, overall Yang seems fine to me. Worse, definitely, but still top 10 material, and he’s still a “complete, complex” character by pretty much any definition.
yea, i’m willing to accept some nerfs but damn, capcom went in on my dude lol.
Yeah, as the others nerfs, Capcom didn’t joke with his crossup.
Strong setups are needed to perform a single crossup IMO…-___-
Couple points.
Azrael said people quit in his arcade… he also said these players weren’t all that serious anyway.
As for overall character design, you might not agree, but a LOT of people believe a game with a lot of really good characters is good, and fun. I kinda think it’s boring when you have characters that have such clear weaknesses, that match-ups have such obvious, clear objectives to them. I find the matches at the top of AE to be more dynamic and enjoyable than anything I’ve played or watched in SF4. The only thing that comes close, IMO, is Ryu mirrors between Daigo and Valle. That’s a problem, to me.
As some of you know, I come from CvS2, which as a game, has a LOT of very strong stuff in it. Match-ups are extremely dynamic, because you can’t just pin down characters against some really huge weakness they have. You have to be extremely creative in your offense to succeed, or you can focus on making it as hard as possible for your opponent to open you up. In that, the game creates a load of different styles with every character (helped out by the game’s groove and team systems as well), and, to me, it’s the greatest fighting game of all time. Personal opinion.
So, it’s obvious why I have the view that I have on SF4, and the decisions being made with AE. Personally, I wouldn’t mind playing Yun/Yang/Fei/Viper/Ken/Sagat/Gief/Makoto/Akuma (plus whichever random character inevitably rises in ranks) matches for the next few years. These matches are dynamic and rewarding. I would prefer to play that game, than play a game with 35 viable characters, whom are only viable because the top level has been lowered to account for the weakness of others.
Hopefully the buffs to characters in 2012 will be great, and the game will be good. It still just sucks to see Yang take the hit he has. I’m not saying he’s gonna be ass. He’s still going to be good… I just don’t think he was so good that he needed to come down. I think he’s an amazing character. Interesting as fuck, and it sucks to not have that anymore, on the same level.
Again… you have to understand where I come from. If you threw CvS2 A-Blanka into SF4, he would absolutely rape the game. To me, there hasn’t been a single character in the series that needed to be nerfed. You might not agree that a game with a bunch of STRONG characters is a good game, but that’s what I believe. That’s my starting point in this conversation, so if we’re already on different pages, at the start, there’s no need to even continue talking about it.
I understand where you’re coming from HAV, and I agree it’s a difference of personal opinion. I find a lot of matches in SF4 fairly dynamic, precisely because it’s a lot of characters trying their best to attack a weakness, but being unable to because the opponent is playing well. Therefore, the match changes into something else… trying to attack the counterattacks, and so forth.
Take for example… Abel vs Rufus. Rufus has advantage in this match, but Abel has a chance to shine if he can get in on Rufus without meter. An Abel playing well can also keep a Rufus out (to long enough of a degree to win a round). Would this match be “better” in some objective term if both Rufus and Abel had DPs without meter, or good backdashes? Giving them more tools, in this one instance, doesn’t make the match better or more “dynamic”. IMO, there’s already enough of a dynamic here… from an Abel point of view, Abel has to get in on Rufus without meter, then bait the meter out of Rufus when he’s got it, and there are lots of ways to play offense and defense in this match. To me, with Yang, it’s about “ok, I’m going to stand at this range for a while, while you’re scared shitless… try a few things, and eventually I’m gonna get into that magic range where you can’t do much except take a lot of damage”. I don’t think this is a fault with the way SF4 is designed, and I don’t really see how you can buff other characters to compensate for giving characters like Yun/Yang almost every tool in the game’s disposal (more importantly, ways around every tool in addition). It can get to the point where no tool can stop them from winning.
I like Momochi’s point of view on this topic. When asked “what do you think of them nerfing Yun in the next game?”, he answered something like “Me, personally, I don’t have a problem with Yun, but I understand that the community has not responded well to the character, and because of that I think it’s in Capcom’s best interest to nerf him a bit”. Of course, when Momochi says “community”, he’s not talking about randoms on SRK (who will complain about anything, in all character forums, as you know), but the good players who are playing the game in Japanese arcades.
“I think he’s an amazing character. Interesting as fuck, and it sucks to not have that anymore, on the same level.” - I suppose this quote is the crux, because while I agree Yang is an interesting character, I don’t think these nerfs ruin him from a complexity point of view. He can still do everything he always has (more or less, sometimes it may cost him meter now or he has to time a button a bit more strictly)… he hasn’t really lost any tools that can open someone up. It’s just now, he has to run one more mixup, or do a dive kick from a slightly better position, or what have you. Same as Yun… I watched Kazunoko play that ver2012 stream and he was still dive kicking and command grabbing people as he always did. I feel Yang will largely be the same… getting in, running most of the same stuff he used to do.
To be honest, I thought Yang was going to get hit even harder than this. Rekkas more unsafe, dive kicks have a huge pause, EX teleport worse recovery, cr.short now 4 frames, stand jab whiffs on crouchers… I thought all these changes were likely. As he stands I still think he will be an interesting character who will have interesting, dynamic matches with Yun/Fei/Akuma/Ken/whoever else you listed… I don’t really see what you liked about AE changing all that much. In fact, if anything, you’ll be adding a few more characters to that list of dynamic matches.
Is it safe to say Yang as no crossup now, like Yun/Dudley, etc? I watched quite a bit of the 2k12 footage and was unable to find one, and I think I saw most common setups ie forward throw, dash, jump mk and senkyuutai, jump mk when opponent quick rises. I’d appreciate if anyone could point me to a video where he lands it…is it a setup or just really spacing dependant? Might be character specific…dunno.
After watching AE2012 footage of Yang… damn, Capcom really crippled the character IMO.
The most blatant nerf that really stood out was his lack of cross up in j.mk. His st.lk being 5 frames (4 frames seemed fair but 5…? seriously…) and the inability to reliably (if at all possible) combo into cr.lk off of a dive kick up close really hurt the character. Fuckin sucks… Yun is still a solid [good] character, even with the nerfs but Yang… idk if I can say the same.
IMO: if they gave yang his crossup back i could swallow all this bullshit capcom is trying to feed us; at least then he would keep that layer of his game among all the other layers that just became ass. Capcoms balancing section needs to be informed that yang is different from yun on enough levels and not to try and nerf him into being a shitty version of yun with rekkas. But do keep in mind folks: after this change, Ono will decide via his blown up twitter that all the new top tier need to be shuffled again because Capcom has now officially recognized that they are slaves to trolls who cant spend a few months working around the charachters that come out as the obvious best upon release.
I’ve played maybe 5-6 solid Yang players in my time in ranked/Arcade Visits and boy the match-up feels like a true uphill battle.
3 frame shorts
Dive Kick Pressure
DP which can be cancelled
Command Grab with throw invincibility, not enough that he also has a command grab but also invincible to throws (granted EX only)
Palm that can stuff a bunch of moves and builds meter easily plus armor breaker
Easy Juggle from a normal attack
Cross-up Shenanigans
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All in all, while I thought the character had way too many tools to make any opponent’s life hell (come on, objectively), not enough players utilized them effectively to make the match-ups one-sided, this would surely have changed with time so I felt he needed “some” genuine nerfs. As I see it though, Yang got nerfed to hell and way more than he needed to so I truly feel they went too far, some small tweaks here and there would have sufficed but they came with a 2x4 instead of the standard bat and whacked him hard, but I know the true warriors will stick with Yang regardless. My 2 1/4 cents.
Thank you for not coming here and saying, “LOL YOU DESERVED TO GET NERFED!” Yang needed a few adjustments here and there. Capcom decided to just behead him instead.
judging by the silience of this forum ( no surprise after changes ) i’m guessing people either gave up and went back to their old mains, or they just don’t care for yang tech since the patch gonna…change him anyway?
maybe they got tired of raging/crying/complaining… shit requires mad energy iirc… lol
im sure there are people who are going to give up/already gave up, some going to wait and see till its really finalized, some will stick to yang etc…
I’ll be sticking with him no matter what, he’s a fun character. I’m just waiting for more info or videos. Are location test done now?
theres one starting today and will last for three days…
Yang forums were always dead.
I will at the very least keep yang a second. I just dont know if it is worth it to really work on him right now as it seems like he will be changed to much.
I’m training.
I’ve learned over my time on SRK that it’s better to shut the fuck up and hit the lab rather than bitch for someone else to do it for yo.