I’m no XvSF player, but after watching David Lee play the game in casual, I have to say that the game is extremely stupid and I will never play it:
DL:"Hey, watch this. I think I invented an infinite."
Me: “Huh?”
(David messes around)
DL:"Yeah, this is an infinite. I wonder if THIS is an infinite.“
Me:”…"
DL:"Yep, it is."
ME:“This game is fucking stupid.”
u forgot mags (also untech-hittable. I think i just made a word. :lol: )
[quote]
*Originally posted by Spider-Dan *
**
…which is why I’ve seen people holding back and get hit by the super after a pushblock.
Like I said, you’re welcome to try to throw it.
~I dont know about u guys but if u fuck up the push block u shouldnt be playing in the tourney. thats elementry shit. imo.~
People do not escape throws at a 90%+ success rate in the
arcade
~why is that so hard to believe? if u know the throw is coming, its gonna be teched. plain and simple. unless your playing geif or mags OR your (not u personally) just not that fast/good.~
I don’t understand how people can like MvC2 and not XvSF, it’s stupid.
So, at first, you claim that Kaillera deprives players of the timing to make any quick responses(Which, of course, is not true, and was not true, on the servers I played on), then you claim, that when they do display quick timing(Even though I seriously doubt it took even that. The juggernaut user was most likely extremely predictable with his command throw. They always are. It wasnt you, was it?), you chalk it up to Auto Fire. And I suppose all my ability comes from macros, and all my knowledge from SparkNotes.com. Also, if youve seen someone get hit during an AG cancel where they were holding back, then the fools AGd too soon. A throw is instant. Therefore, if you do it when shes right next to you. It will either come out, or it wont. So, either you will throw, or you will block. The only way for someone to screw it up, is to pushblock too soon, so that shes Not right next to them when they recover. A punch comes out, and they eat it. That IS elementary. And, IF they tech it(Which is likely, because the Pushblock gives away when youre going to throw), they still pass control of the flow of the match, to you. Theyre in a position they didnt want to be in, and arent very Familiar with. A good Ryu player, will know exactly what to do to keep it that way.
And, interrupting with a DP is simple timing, Dan. Timing is Easy. Psych is what a player should be afraid of. The player, not the character.
And, those rule changes you stated… Theyre not designed to make one character better then the other. Theyre designed to makes the ones that already are better, normal. Because, the best form of competition is psychology, not tiers and elementary timing. Come on…
As for Auto Fire… Yes, I do claim to be a former(Most likely still considered) champion, which is precisely why I would be in a far better place to critique it then you, someone who obviously hasnt liked it from day one. Try being objective, just once. In order for autofire to work, functionally, it would have to be run off of a separate background program, synchronized with your KB input, and not interfere with the EMUs relay. Also, you use Tech hitting as your example of autofire. Mashing would be far more probable. If they use Cyc and Bison, and their whole gameplan is to build meter and chip with mashed supers, I might believe they were using Autofire. Hasnt happened yet. I dont doubt there are people that use background programs for things like that, but seeing as how its yet to come into contact with my gameplay, the point is, its a minute possibility.
Let me review the situation and see if it makes sense:
Chun vs Ryu, Chun does Senretsu Kyaku, Ryu pushblocks, then throws, which Chun techs.
From Prozac’s point of view: Chun player has passed control of the match to Ryu, and are in a position that they aren’t familiar with and are uncomfortable with.
Why does this make absolutely no sense to me? Teching a throw against Ryu does NOT as Chun give him the initiative. What can Ryu do to capitalize on the tech? Maybe if she was in the corner he’d have some options, but I see it more as a match reset, which I see as favourable for Chun. How is teching a throw putting a Chun player in a position they are unfamiliar with (against Ryu)? How does it make them uncomfortable?
It seems that Prozac, you’re making a lot of assumptions about the Chun player. You’re obviously trying to discuss the matchup using high level play, but it seems as if you’re skewing the skill level towards the Ryu player.
Brian’s “How to beat Chun-Li” FAQ…
step 1. pick magneto
step 2. pick any other character
step 3. wull…um…thats about it. :lol:
In the arcade, no matter how “predictable” I was (there is a specific setup I use), the throw was not tech hitted, due to the insanely small escape window for that throw. Out of the hundreds of times I’ve landed that throw in the arcade (many of which were QUITE predictable) I have had it escaped less than three times.
On Kaillera, out of the 50 or so times I’ve landed the throw, I’ve had it tech hitted about 20 times. And it’s not like the quality of players on Kaillera is higher; quite the opposite.
So what’s the most logical explanation for how these players, who are substantially inferior in every other aspect of the game to the competition I’ve played against, have somehow COMPLETELY MASTERED this one aspect? Answer: autofire.
Of course, you are taking into account that the Chun player can vary how much she is pushed back (by the rate of her mashing), right? If you’re trying to say that you would only attempt a throw when at point blank range (after a pushblock), then you’ll be eating a lot of block damage with no chance at a throw. The dynamic of whether or not the player gets hit during the throw attempt has to do with attempting the throw at the (perceived) edge of a character’s throw range, which is the real threat. Obviously, if you misjudge your character’s throw range, you get hit.
LOL. Seeing as how I just detailed the situation, what makes you think the Chun player isn’t familiar with a tech hit during a blocked super? In your situation, the “match control” is only passed to Ryu if the Chun player is a scrub/idiot, and doesn’t know that (tech hit or not) she dominates Ryu in every aspect of the game.
Naturally, you cannot be bothered to explain such trivial details as to what Ryu does when he’s not hypothetically escaping a random super. As has been pointed out, Chun owns Ryu during the entire fight. He cannot mount an offense with any sort of safety.
According to this, people should never be able to jump at a downed opponent in SF, because every time, they would get DPed, without fail. Timing is Easy, after all.
They are designed to specifically hurt some characters, and help (by lack of subtraction) others. What about a character like Wolvie, who (without his infinites) gets hurled to the bottom of the barrel?
It’s artificial tampering. Why don’t you just play by the rules Capcom put in the game?
At this point, I must say that even your claim to be good in the Kaillera realm is highly suspect.
Mame has an Autofire option BUILT INTO THE EMULATOR. Even first-day Kaillera newbies know this. All your talk about “separate background programs” and “EMU relays” is total bullshit.
And even if Autofire wasn’t built in, there are hundreds of controllers with a Turbo feature built in.
You cannot be this stupid.
I’ve seen this many times.
Generally speaking, it’s not hard to determine who is and is not using Autofire. When I play against a player that is obviously inferior in many aspects of execution, but always perfect in aspects that would benefit from Autofire, I can tell right then.
Once again, the Autofire option is built into Mame, so you’re either lying, or a complete ignoramus. Using Autofire involves nothing more complex than setting AUTOFIRE for that button to ON.
If you were familiar with emulators, Spider-Dan, you might know that Mame is a horrible emulator for any game that requires quick reflexes, due to the fact that the response pales in comparison to Final Burn Alpha, and Nebula. Final Burn Alpha just happens to be much more common, and supports a better list of games, then Nebula. Therefore, if you’re playing a Vs game on Mame, I completely understand your ignorant view of Online Timing. Also, your view of the skill level on kaillera. In the future, I’d suggest using an emulator better suited to the game you’re trying to play.
Therefore… Pertaining to the only emulator that allows the reponse ‘needed’ for high level play… No, Autofire is not an easily available feature.
As for your attempted rationalization of the threat during the AG Cancel… There is none. No matter how much they try to vary the rate, Chun Li still closes the gap very quickly, and due to the fact that it’s a rushing super, once the gap is closed, a pushblock will not jeapordize that. Average block damage? 6, 7 pixels, if that. A throw does substantially more. So much more, in fact, that it’s STILL a substantial advantage, even after you factor in the average rate of a Tech Hit. Keeping in mind, this is the easy, 0 risk way of countering the random super. Other methods, though more difficult, have a higher payoff on average.
Secondly. If you block the super, and let it chip, ‘that’ is a reset. Both players generally know where they’re going to be, several seconds ahead of time, and both are provided a brief respite. If ryu throws, and chun techs, ryu has altered the path of their positioning, and changed where the chun player thought they were going to be. The ryu player has not, because it’s up to him wether or not he changes the positioning. And, if he does decided to change the position, and Chun techs, Ryu immediately is in close range. He doesn’t have to pass the hurdle of getting past pokes, because he already has.
And, of course, a Chun player would know the situation of ‘Just having tech hit Ryu’s Punch Ground Throw’, but she would not know it as well as a Ryu player would know how to follow up a throw of his that just got tech’d. That’s simple gameplay experience, ‘especially’ with Ryu, considering the options his throws open up when the opponent misses a tech(That means, a Ryu player would most likely throw more then some other characters).
Perhaps psychology is something you leave out of all your calculations, but flow of the match factors into it in every way concievable. And when Ryu shifts the position/direction/speed of the match, directly imposing it on his opponent, he has the immediate advantage. Even if you’re not able to capitalize on it.
As for your little timing nuances… You misunderstimate the ability of players to calculate simple timing. The smallest increment of time in XSF, is one sixtieth of a second. (And I seriously doubt the window for Jugg’s command throw is one frame.). That timeframe, is also the window that you have for Ryu’s (FS) s.short(OTG) -> s.strong -> s.twd.forward, s.jab(FSD) link, which I can link 7 times out 10. What was the ratio you had for that Tech Hit vs your predictable throw again? Oh yeah, it was 4 out of 10.
Now, I can’t speak for the lag or time displacement during your match, but it was probably at least a couple of frames(No good servers around recently). So I’d say you’d improve your chances if you didn’t give them half an hour to gauge the delay and time the Tech. Or we could just mash Strong+Forward+Fierce+Roundhouse and tech every throw every time, because apparently that works for Chun Li.
I’m done with the flame war. Go ahead and give your two cents, and try to leave the thread in peace until someone actually has some news relevant to XSF in Evo.
This is not a flame war, it’s strategy discussion, it’s the main thing missing from the forums. If you want to prove you’re really good (you exist , hehe) , you can make it in 2 ways. One is to beat Spiderdan for real, no questions there. I understand you don’t want to do that.The other is to prov more knowledge than him here, but not by assuming what he would think in a situation but yes to dekiver superior tactics and strategies (kind of like Kdcmarvel did to Viscant a couple of times, although in a much more friendly and polite way).
Saying that you can hit things at evvery frame and stuff liek that really does not count. Everybody can say that, but until today the only proved player with 100% execution at exact frames was Mt, not even an american.
Go play spiderdan, or at least keep the debate going. or else it will seen like you chickened out again, and people might think you are just a dwarf instead of a real human being 
Evidence? Zero.
And Mame is so much more overwhelmingly popular than both combined that FBA is irrelevant. Yeah, I’d use FBA, if I felt like sitting in server chatrooms for 10 minutes waiting to find one game, with no noticeable (if even existent) benefit.
Hundreds of controllers have turbo built in. I already mentioned this. Your point is still moot.
In your world, I guess the Chun player can’t be prepared for both possible outcomes, as well as others (counter, opponent dies, opponent takes the hit, random super connected, etc.). No, according to you, the Chun player has ONE SPECIFIC OUTCOME in their mind, and if that doesn’t happen, usually they drop the controller in amazement, or something.
Seeing as how Chun is in the position of teching during that super (in all matchups) far more often than Ryu is in the position of following up a teched throw, I’d say you are precisely wrong.
Your definition of “psychology” only comes up when the game is being played by rookies, scrubs, or idiots. Any good player should be not only prepared, but experienced in dealing with these situations.
The fact that you have to resort to the stale cliche of “They won’t know what to do then!” pretty much says everything that needs to be known about your position. Your strategy is a single-use, one trick pony at best, and even then only against people who didn’t learn how to flog that tired pony six years ago.
And exactly how did you determine that the frame window for that link is not two, not five, but precisely one frame? If you know that, why are you guessing on what the escape window for Jug’s command throw is? Why don’t you just tell us exactly how many frames it is?
note: It’s really easy to claim that you can do x, y, and z 70% of the time, when you are under no obligation whatsoever to prove it. I admire your strategy of not claiming 90-95%; we’d all instantly know you’re lying.
Apparently, you need to take either a math class, or a reading comprehension class.
I wrote:
Conservatively, I will define “hundreds of times” to mean 600 (it’s probably actually closer to double that, but 600 will suffice). We’ll also round up “less than three” to an even three.
3 tech hits / 600 chances = 0.5% escape rate in the arcade, where I can verify that the opponent is not using autofire.
I then said that on Kaillera, the move was teched at a 40% rate. This was in contrast to the arcade, where people are definitely not using autofire. The fact that it was teched at 40% instead of 100% (which it should be, with autofire) simply amounts to the following:
I don’t know what game you’re playing, but if Chun techs Ryu’s throw, unless she is in the corner, Ryu will not be in close range. Ryu has to follow the tech with a dash to get into range because of the bounce back on the tech.
Ryu doesn’t have to be in the corner. He can be up to Midscreen, and due to the fact that it’s a rushing super, it’s still easy to manuever so that she’s in the corner.
And, it doesn’t matter if it’s a one hit pony if you haven’t seen it before. In fact, it’s even better then a stale tactic that’s mildly effective.
And, it’s easy to count frames on an emulator. Most have frame by frame options. That is precisely how I know that it’s a one frame oppurtunity. And, seeing as how it ‘is’ conversation, you needn’t trust anything I say, and I needn’t trust anything you say(Such as, how many times your Jugg throw was tech’d in the arcade, how many times it was tech’d online, and what your opinion is of the local scrubs you play in your free time.) Basic trust is a given, or the entire discussion is moot.
Lastly, I said 4 out of 10 ratio, for your opponent tech’ing. That would be a 40 percent chance, for a multi frame window. I cited a 70 percent chance for a single frame window. The whole point was to prove that that evasion rate is entirely feasible, as long as you’re on a decent server. And the math, was just fine. Maybe you need to recheck your problems. If you have a .5% evasion at your arcade, maybe you need to check your competition. Especially with predictable setups.
And for one last little nuance… If the window for Jugg’s Tech ‘is’ one frame, then the best evasion rate you could hope for with Autofire is 50%, and that’s if the autofire is perfectly set up for a 60 FPS game. It gets progressively worse otherwise.
And, when I cited that bit about my existence… I do believe the context was, ‘I could care less if you believe’. I have nothing to prove to you, nor anyone here. Exactly what good would it do me? Recognition? Respect? Please.
I have two goals as far as this game goes. One, is to play XSF, because I enjoy it. The second, is to answer any questions anyone might have about it, so other people can enjoy it, and because I’m generally an altruistic person.
If you have a question, let me know. I’ll give you an answer, and it’ll be correct. If you have a comment about XSF Evo, post it here. For personal inquiries, keep it to PM, as this is an Evo related thread, and all strategy discussion has gone from it. Mostly, from a pre-emptive surge of distrust on Spider-Dans part. Good day.
It runs 60 frames by second, right? Which means 1 frame will be close to 16.6 ms, I believe (top of my head). Any ping 16.6 will have a 1 or 2 frames delay, depending on how soon within the frame you pressed the button. Any ping below that would have 0 or 1 frame delay. If those things are really only 1 frame to escape, then doing it at the right time on Kaillera often means you will do it at the wrong time at the arcade often ( 1 or 2 frames before the correct timing).
Very technical Kaillera players become players that play wrong at the arcade, it seems.
Also, this will probably ruin a lot of Mvc2 stuff in the future, like the timing for doing a 1 frame teleport, counter GB AHVB with another AHVB or some specific guard cancels. It sucks…
Just my unrelated 2 cents
You might think that at first, but in most instances, it’s not true. The entire game is behind oh, about 1 or 2 frames, as you said. So, in fact, wether you judge your timing by sight, or by memory, the timing remains the same. It just all comes out 1/60th of a second after the fact. In the arcade, you would see it 1/60th of a second sooner, and thus, would press the button/move the stick 1/60th of a second sooner as well. The true threat is sporadic lag on unstable servers, as there’s no way that can be dealt with.
Really, the only thing that takes a hit is the ability for instant response, which yes, is unfortunate… But most of the time, the 1-3 frame delay can only barely be noticed. Otherwise, I’d never be able to win in the arcade.
2 cents are always good.
i couldnt have said it better.
i dont know how this got turned into a flame war but it needs to stop. its hurting the chances of it being at evo. who really gives a shit if you play on kaillra or at the arcade. the fact of the matter is that you like the game and want it at evo. forget about whos right and wrong about tiers and kaillera players and other bullshit people have been trying to out do each other in. lay it to rest now. it can be settled at evo next year. thats what this thread is for. if you want to argue about the game do it in fighting discussion or some other place.
my 2 cents
This conversation is not a flame war, it’s a discussion that SRK needs more of. The whole flame war thing looks like a cop-out to me.
The main reason to play a game is if there’s something to prove, either who’s the best, or something new. If you agree that discussing the game is a waste of time, then there is no use to play it. If people aren’t willing to come prove something, then there’s no point in even setting it up.
You’re not answering my question. What options does Ryu have when Chun techs the throw? You claim that Ryu is already in close range, but how? How is he supposed to be able to be there with the distance created by the tech? He can’t go air due to Chun’s standing Roundhouse, so that leaves the ground, meaning a dash, which Chun can counter with crouching Forward. I don’t see how Ryu has an upper hand here.
You’re correct in one thing. SRK is lacking in most of the ability for a civil game discussion.
And, the reason I dismiss this ‘talk’ on the basis of a flame war, is because it is. It has entirely turned into drivel about Spider-Dan and me argueing on the internet, and nothing of any substance(Such as the simple fact that because Chun is airborne, Ryu ‘can’ dash, if they’re not already in the corner already, which is unlikely.) The first step in having more of the ‘strategy discussions’ you are apparently so deprived of, is less cynical, and much less personal. Otherwise, you get this.
And, incase you missed it, I said the purpose of the game was enjoyment. The ways Spider-Dan and I derive enjoyment from the game are very dissimilar.
Over and out
this has kinda of become a flame war. and fmjaguar does make a good point about discussing the game. but im gonna bump this shit. here it goes:
i like xvsf and i would like to be at evo next year. i thinks a fun game to play, and very tournament worthy. yeah yeah i know this sounds lame but this arguing has to stop.