Though I’m an avid GG player, I’m against universal air dashes. I think that everyone should have some kind of advanced movement, and that, if there are going to be characters like Storm and Sentinel, there should be no characters who fundamentally cannot reach them. However, saying yes to diversity is predicated on faith that Capcom can do a good job balancing things. It’s true that universal air dashes would be a major evening factor, and assuming Capcom will fuck up versus balance as usual, yeah, they’d result in a more balanced game than we’d otherwise have.
I think that, if Capcom can do it right, thinking outside the box and handing out unique stuff is best. But if they can’t, the question is balance versus diversity. I think I’d side with balance, so long as it didn’t mean everyone was triangle jumping and rushing down like Magneto.
But I think a topic not often talked about that was really bad for MvC2 was sprite scaling. Look at Ryu and look at Magneto. They’re both supposed to be, y’know, humans, neither ridiculously short nor tall. But Magneto is way bigger. The Marvel cast were just… Drawn bigger. They had more reach. They take up a lot of the screen with their moves, and that’s a big deal in Marvel. 'Course, this should end up fixed in MvC3, 'cos in 3D they can’t just be lazy and use old, tiny sprites while drawing big ones for Mahvel characters.
capcom understands alternate movement options. Look @ vampire savior. Not every character has an AD but except for 1-2 characters, they’re all pretty viable.
The top tiers aren’t all dominated by AD characters. bbhood, fishman, wolfman and monkeyman are all top tier\upper mid with no AD abilities. The way they balanced out the game was VERY well done. There is diversity among the cast and they’re all formidable @ a tournament.
This is the old capcom though that knew wtf they were doing. The dev’s behind mvc3 have already said they’re trying to make the game easy to allow to draw in new players. When you dumb the game down to draw in new players, it hinders the rest of us who already know how to play.
oh yea thats right, I forgot I actually know how to play marvel.
there is a reason sf4, BB and even HDR are being shitted on. If easy execution in a game was such a great idea, we should see DOA next year and the year after and probably for the rest of the decade.
by dumbing down the engine, we’re left with less room for the game to grow. Pretty much every year mvc2 has been around, the game has changed shape due to the complexity of the engine. That’s the main reason games like mvc2 continue to progress while other games seem to stay stagnant. Games like SF4 will never create a higher level in the game because the mechanics are too rigid. In mvc2, if 1 player spends enough time in training mode, you can push the level over and over. Its been 10 years and no one has mastered the game and new things are still being discovered on a daily basis.
but I wouldn’t expect non marvel players to understand that.
Protip: If you’re going to retaliate against an accusation, don’t prove said accusation undeniably true in the rebuttal.
I didn’t say jack fucking squat about how good or bad you were at a game. I implied that you’re bad at using reason based on taking other people’s arguments, presenting a warped version of that argument, and than attacking the warped argument (aka, straw-man), and because you’re taking other people’s moderate positions and responding based on the most extreme end (aka, slippery slope). That’s what I implied, NOT that you’re good or bad at a video game. Get your facts straight.
Hostility isn’t my intent but we’ve had 10 years between Marvel VS games (and hell, 8-9 years if you count TvC). The reaction to SF4 was the same. Everyone IS going to “act like they know” because the predecessors to these games have been around for so damn long. Not to mention, a huge chunk of us were mere teens in the mid 90’s so it’s only natural to find that a lot of us have an intimate connection with these games because we’ve played them into our adulthood.
Sure, Specs took a shot at your post but he was merely illuminating the weakness of your post. There is no proper way to be sure that “this is the old Capcom” for multiple reasons. First: we only have a teaser and SF4 and TvC to back up their return. SFIITHDR was far from perfect. SF4 is good but always a work in progress (even Ono admitted that SSF4 is what he wanted SF4 to be). TvC is hit or miss for most, the fact that it’s Wii only (so far) backs that Capcom (as a corporation) doesn’t feel entirely safe with it’s success potential. Secondly, “Old Capcom” wasn’t even that thoughtful. Look at MvC2. The game is fun and playable but there’s no denying that it could’ve used a TON of work to make it “complete”. Yeah, they were limited by technology but they could’ve still supported the damn game despite it’s lack of popularity in Japan. Oh wait, no, the “Old Capcom” wouldn’t do that. Back in the 90’s Capcom would only issue revised iterations of franchises if they were widely popular in Japan. It just wasn’t in their monetary interest. Now, 10 years into the 21’s century, 3d graphics and better, cheaper hardware, combined with much greater support by the US community (not to mention a more inclusive approach to game development across Capcom’s major branches) they can put more effort into their beloved games while also listening to the community. The fight clubs, PR shit, and even more frequent interviews/public discussions with the likes of Ono and Seth Killian are proof the Capcom’s doing things differently then they used to.
unfortunately i would guess that most of the people that don’t want mvc3 to be “broken” would rather everyone play like the low tier characters in mvc2 as opposed to the top tier characters
this type of question would only work once we understand the framework of the game itself, no way to accurately gauge the need for the airdash vs the keepaway characters without enough testing. Certain character builds function fine without the airdash in marvel 2, cable strider spiral bh megaman immediately come to mind. Their toolsets for filling the vertical and horizontal spaces allow them to reposition behind variable projectile walls. On the other end of the stick we have gief who is simply fucked based on the dash startup time and his mobility move being so weak VS the keepaway characters AND their options. He’s also screwed over by the tri jump characters who keep placing their active hitbox on his head for free. We have to understand at least some of the engine mechanics for an educated guess to be in play here.
Yeah, basically, knowing nothing about the gameplay, we can’t tell whether universal airdash would even be a good idea. But assuming it would play like MvC2, instead of adding a universal mechanic, I’d ask questions like: “Can this character catch a runaway Storm?” “Can this character get in on a keepaway Cable?” etc.
Yeah, they need to release MvC2: Tournament edition already. :razzy:
It is fun to watch some low tier people like VDO, Japanese player Kanu go at it though (you know, the Bison, Sim, Hulk player)?
Also, about the air dash thing just throwing this out there…you can have different speeds of airdashes and different distances, depending on the character. Also, you can give characters that make sense to get the airdash depending their design. For example, makes no sense for Mags and Storm to have 8-way and flight but Morrigan does not. Ryu could go without a air dash perhaps, give the him the ability to combo off his overhead or something, that kind of thing. Just my opinion.
But like Mixup said, this is pretty dependent on how the system would work so…
Mixup in one pretty much, we don’t know how this game plays so we can’t really adapt MvC2 as a complete framework for a game we haven’t even seen in action yet. Although having multiple different movement options, as long as everybody got something would go a decent way into making some low tier characters more viable: i.e. Morrigan (or Spidey) with a form of 8-way airdash to take their high-low game to another level as well as giving them something on runaway Storm.
Also, Specs with mad logic. Dr. B can see all things at all times, but can he see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch?
Isn’t it funny that everyone tries to imply that TVC isn’t even one of the vs. series games? Clearly Capcom was continuing the vs. series and it just failed. No other capcom games have both active tag systems and aerial combat besides the vs. series. Yet they said mvc3 is the 5th game in the vs. series. This is probably due to the fact that tvc is an awful game and a failure in both the eyes of capcom and the consumers that support capcom. Mvc3 is the 6th game in the vs. series. We are not going to just sweep tvc under the rug like the Armenian genocide. We need to remember this horrible piece of work by capcom so we can be sure that this abomination of a game and its mechanics are kept only in tvc and any followups that capcom decides to make for it if they haven’t learned their lessons. Of course that means putting anything that originated with tvc into mvc3 would be an awful, awful idea. Universal airdashes originated with tvc and failure was part of tvc so we don’t want the sickness of failure spreading over to mvc3. Universal airdashes don’t seem fun to me and that might simply be because tvc isn’t fun as a whole and they are in tvc. I think its probably because it is a stupid idea and seeing ryu airdash makes me want to vomit. NO universal airdash please capcom, you failed with tvc but we forgive u and hope you will learn from your mistakes and make mvc3 nothing like it.
MvC3 being stated as the 5th in the series probably means internally TvC is considered a separate series from Marvel vs, same way CvS was separate from Marvel vs.
so we actaully have 3 vs series going on at once.
Marvel vs
Tatsunoko vs
and Vs Snk.
For MvC3 I see no reason not to give all characters an advanced movement option appropriate for their style assuming movement is important for MvC3
Anyway, you’re correct in saying that airdash is just one solution. Speaking specifically about Zangief, I thought of two things that would help him greatly (much more than an airdash):
green hand is faster and has Colossus/Cap-like projectile-annulling properties
superman grab evades projectiles
You can also do little things like fixing his dash so it doesn’t end in grab whiff (particularly after flying screen).
Airdash isn’t a cure-all and I think many characters (like Zangief) would actually benefit more from double jump, but those are the kinds of solutions that you can put on the table.
In the same sense that the CVS games are not part of the Vs. series (by which, we actually mean the Marvel series), yes.
Actually, I think the funny part is that TVC apologists always use the fact that it’s on the highest-selling system as a reason for why it is so unpopular. Yeah, Wii’s global installed user base is almost equal to 360’s and PS3’s combined (in Japan, it’s nearly double that of 360+PS3), but what does that have to do with anything? Everybody knows that “nobody” has a Wii.
personally i think speeding up giefs ground dash(like, alot) is the key and his normal anti air buttons need to be greatly improved. I’m fine with lariat having a huge hitbox for med range aa and if his c.fp aa was more like a weaker ironman fk launch then i’d be happy(keep his aircombos around half life)
it’s hard to say how all this would help him until we can see what he’d be up against.
If this game doesn’t have some free space to work with its going to be figured out VERY FAST and get stale.
The fighting game community and the world has become much more connected in the last 10 years. Look at how much gameplay on SSF4 was figured out before the games official release, and not just known by one or two people, posted on youtube for everyone to see. SRK has grown immensely sense that time too and MVC3 is definitely going to have character specific forums.
Tiers are going to come out quick, glitches are going to be figured out and mainstream within the first month, maybe the first week or two. Its a pretty safe bet to say MVC3 is going to be figured out to where mvc2 was 2-3 year after release, in about 6 months. If the characters are contrained too tightly by the system this game will not last nearly as long as MVC2.
I should clarify by saying that green hand would annul projectiles on his entire sprite (like Colossus’ shoulder bash), not just on his hand. Given that you also speed it up, he could use it like Colossus uses TK shoulder bash to advance against zoning characters.
I’m not a big fan of anti-air normals with MVC2 assists just because the threat of empty (normal) jump + AAA quickly makes ground anti-air a losing proposition (unless you are someone like IM or Mag that can get a kill off of a launch). It’s slightly better against super jumps, but not many characters have reliable anti-air directly above their head (IM does, which gives him a great risk/reward vs. SJers). Zangief would be better off with something like instant jump lariat having a huge anti-air hitbox on top.
Protip: If you’re going to retaliate against an accusation, don’t prove said accusation undeniably true in the rebuttal.