I am not what you would call a skilled player, much less a veteran. However, I can’t stand SFIV I’m not liking the game that much. I’m actually better at SFIV, because I suck at linking in HDR, but all of a sudden I’ve come back to it and have practiced way more.
The only dilemma I’ve created for myself is I’m questioning the longevity of HDR vs SFIV. That’s what I want to somehow know in order to dedicate my time practicing to get better.
I would rep you if I could. Welfare combos ftw (or ftl?)!
I totally missed that bit.
It’s interesting in that it facilitates comebacks on both sides of the fence. Plus usually even if you get hit with an ultra you will get your own ultra (or if you already have it you will fill your bar to max) so you get your own shot at revenge for it.
I’m just kind of worried that too many matches will come down to that… both players sitting on 3/4th an ultra bar and 20-25% health left, where all that really matters is who lands that ultra to win.
That’s how most of my matches in SF4 went against anybody who was good…get a lead in life, and sit on it. Since so many attacks are unsafe on block, countering, block-n-punishing, and trading is such a good tactic, especially when it’s so much harder to mount an offense than it is to trade blows with someone against whom you have a lead in remaining life.
Granted, this might be different with fireball characters to some degree, but I doubt it changes the dynamic of the match all that much.
Ditto.I LOVE HDR, for me it’s the best Street Fighter, period, and i’ve owned pretty much EVERY version on some format or other.HDR is not perfect, by any means, but ST was already a fantastic start, and the addition of gorgeous graphics, and a bunch of online options that actually foster real community between players has HUGE value.SF IV is missing a lot of that.
I’m trying desperately since IV was released to get to anywhere near the level of whup-ass i’m at in HDR, and what bugs me is that the 18 year plus head start i have on all the shoryu spamming ken scrubs feels like it counts for so much less than it did in any other game in the series…timing that has literally been fine tuned so much over the years that it’s become instinct feels like it’s been tossed aside by Ono-san, and i’ve been sent back to “street fighter 101” to learn it again from scratch.
IV is not destined to have the same “classic” label as ST/HDR.It’s a good game, and it stands up very well on it’s own, but IMO the core will come back to ST/HD when the fuss dies down, simply because the GAMEPLAY shines through.Now if only capcom would hurry the hell up with that god damn patch…
Yeah, but maybe I don’t want an Ultra. Maybe I like working for what I get.
It’s not like any other SF where you have to build your meter. Whiffing moves, doing special moves etc put you at risk…even if it’s just a little…you literally have to work for it.
In A3 both fighters start with full meter, so both players are on even playing fields but giving someone something for failing is just fubar IMO. I guess it’s done to “keep things interesting” or “to keep little guy in the game?” It’s a bailout/stimulus check built into the game.
I remember reading a post a loong time ago in one of the OG threads where Tomo Ohira(or another famous OG) got a chance to play SFA1 and saw the alpha counter for the first time and said something along the lines of “that’s stupid…it rewards turtles.” Later on players found ways to manipulate A-counters and to use them strategically…but my point is that even something as simple as an A-counter got flak when it was first introduced because it rewarded the guy who was defensive. What kept A-counters in line imo was the fact that you still had to build meter, and the damage from A-counters didn’t do damage like supers.
Now we have 4 …with a super system that rewards you for getting pummeled.
Slice it any way you want but it just doesn’t sit right with me.
Looks like candy but it tastes like Socialism and SF mixed together IMO. Let me do all the work, you reap the reward :clown:
Everything else in has potential, but damnit that(ultra combo system) is the hairy mole on the pretty face of SF4 and that is what is keeping me away. I thought this game was supposed to bring back the purity that made the SF2 series so great?
Hell yes. I played HDR last night and I had at least 3 or 4 Vega de-syncs.
I dont think SFIV will steal our players base.
SFIV is a different game. But it is honestly over hyped if you asked me. And I played the game almost 5 months ago and still have the same feeling about it. Maybe i just like ST more and I am biased but the online for IV is not really fun and until they improve I do not intend playing it much.
I really wish they would have just stuck with the SF2 mechanics upgraded the graphics brought in new characters and added the ex meter/super. I agree with Jumpsuit the ULTRA is retarded. And the mechanics are blah. I feel like they kinda separated the crowd again with the SF player base. Now your going to have 3rd strike, ST, and SFIV players.
Its funny cause my friends do not play SF regularly (or any video games) and when they come over they seem to have a blast with HDR. I put in SFIV the other day and they were like, put ST back on its more fun.
I would play more often if ST Classic was more populated,
I dont like the HDR rules at all
Agreed, i’m maining akuma in SFIV and IMO his Ultra (and super) are retarded, and pointless (I mean what’s the point of an un-combo-able ultra that you get a 3 second warning on everytime and all you have to do to beat it is “JUMP” anyways??).I’m sick of his damage scaling meaning some scrub hits me 3 times in a match (2 heavy kicks and an ultra) and i’m dead, whereas i need to do serious work to get him down to 1/4 health, building up HIS meter in the process, then i eat a shinryuken from him and it’s K.O.:mad:
I figure you’ve got to stay the hell away from ultras until the END of the round, just use them as finishers.The object for me seems to be to make sure the other guy is KO’d with a full ultra bar he never got a chance to use.
PS-Nice one on the “welfare combo” nickname by the way jumpsuit.I’m stealing that :woot: i know it’s central to the new SFIV mechanic, but there should be a “no ultra meter” option for custom games if there isn’t already, IMO welfare combos just encourage ultra conservative turtle-style playing.As soon as you see the full meter it’s “get the hell away” time.:arazz:
Remix still trumps every other fighting game in terms of getting an actual “good” game. Plus it has lobbies. I think even after all the guff over glitches and bugs, HDR will be viewed as the best online fighting game available. Blind char select, spectating, and tournaments…plus it’s only $15.
With that said, I haven’t played it since sf4 came out.
LOL … + REP… F*cking Funny. :lol:
I’ll agree that the ultras can be a little too game-changing. And to everyone saying they totally fuck up the game balance… Given the fact that many of the top tier characters are the ones who can link into the ultras for guaranteed hits if the link/setup lands, you might be right.
I think there are good games that have reverse-slippery-slope comeback potential and are still fun. Sirlin wrote a good article about “perpetual comeback” and how it affects games. I think the end effect is not that it ruins the game, but that it makes all the characters that can link into thier ultra top tier. Characters that have to work for it are at a huge disadvantage. (AFAIK The top two are Sagat and Ryu at the moment, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that they both have about a billion ways to link for a guaranteed ultra.) The nice thing about that is that, even if you had a huge lead and messed up, getting hit by their ultra, you probably have about 3/4ths of an ultra bar now and get your own shot at returning the punishment.
Also, lol @ stimulus combos!
I see it differently in two ways. But first of all, lemme say that the Ultra system is indeed VERY flawed and probably one of the stupidest things about the game, but it has not been enough to turn me off of the game. The problem is, well, SFIV is a different game and, as a result, Ultras have to be looked at in a different way.
Stick with me here. I’m not saying Ultras are fine because this is a new game, but they aren’t as bad as you think because of other things unrelated to Ultras.
But without Ultras, you pretty much would never have any form of Super Combo at all. This DOES create an interesting balance about maybe not using EXs and saving it for Supers, but the problem is for the most part, in SFIV, using your EXs is almost always better. Only in the case of characters like Dhalsim can I see saving your meter for a Super is worth it (his EXs and FADCs aren’t useful at all). But for just about every other character, you’ll be using EXs so much that you’ll never get to see a Super. So in a way, Ultras provide that “Super” that you are used to using in ST. And you can’t even easily buffer into them… landing them in a Combo is much harder AND severely reduces their damage, unlike ST.
Sure, beating up on someone badly gives them Ultras very fast. And thus, they have this magical comeback move. The problem is that most people don’t know how to use them well. Chances are, people who use them randomly to hit you are predictable, so you can generally avoid that situation. Block a lot, you’ll see an Ultra, and then punish it (most are punishable). The only other situation where it ever really lands on you is as a Wake-Up move. Which leads me to the second point:
(As a side note related to HD Remix, now you guys know what it would be like if Reversals were easier to do. It’s SO not worth doing Meaty Attacks in SFIV, and that makes wake-up games so boring. So, no, Reversal Wake-Up attacks are NOT guaranteed, not even at high levels of play. In SFIV, they are pretty much guaranteed).
So to be honest, Ultra Combos haven’t gotten in my way anymore. Not after I made sure never to try Meaty Attacks. Against most people online, I just block enough, and eventually it comes out and I block it and punish or avoid it. People who get lucky enough to hit you with a radnom Ultra are doing just that: throwing it out randomly. Chances are, if you play smart enough, you’ll block it 95% of the time. And, for those people who throw shit out randomly like that, again chances are that they aren’t smart enough to take advatnage of your defensive play while you are trying to bait the Ultra. Against the smart players, it doesn’t matter, then, how Ultras are gained… if they hit you with it, they probably did it because they were smart anyhow.
that’s another thing i forgot to mention. the reversals are way, wayyy too easy. how large of a frame window do you have for a reversal anyway? it’s laughable, but i guess that was another tactic to get the ‘casual gamer’ back into street fighter 
. that and crossups… god. i let a friend borrow the game and to be honest, i really don’t care if he never gives it back.
I main Ken in HDR, and I’m absolutely can’t stand him in SFIV.
Very good post on the whole, I just wanted to add one little tidbit that related to this part:
I notice more and more that certain high-level players are saving their super meter for super combos. I remember watching videos of Daigo playing in the japanese arcades before SFIV hit America, and seeing that he tended to use his EX attacks and save his ultra to use as a combo (or even save his super to srk->fadc->ultra). But then someone posted a chain of 30 youtube videos showing Daigo playing more recently in an arcade, and in those he saves his super meter for super combos almost exclusively. Only times he uses super is to FADC into ultra, or occasionally in weird situations (where a normal fireball would not kill him but an ex would, etc.)
I haven’t really bothered to figure out all the SFIV cast yet, so this might be a Ryu-specific thing, and I know it most certainly doesn’t apply to a lot of other characters. Like you said, Dhalsim seems to fall into the same boat with his super. But good Boxer players seem to save their super for EX or FADC->headbutts… So I’m not sure if that’s a sign of a game-wide metagame shift, or just a shift in the Ryu metagame, or even just Daigo trying out new stuff to see if it works. Just wanted to add that little tidbit.
I agree wholeheartedly with the comments on the meaties. I main Ryu and got so used to throwing meaty fireballs that I lost a couple rounds to wake-up ultras before I learned to keep an eye on that damn ultra meter. I think on wakeup you either go for a crossup, a safe jump, or nothing at all.
Very good points, and I was nodding my head as I read along. But call me a greedy selfish bastard if ya want…I just don’t like working for anyone else but myself. 
But srsly, you make valid points and in theory you could be right. I guess my problem is simple…like I said before…I don’t failure should be rewarded. Just my opinion tho. I suck at this game for now, so who knows what I’ll be saying months from now.
And btw, where the hell is the HDR patch!?
Well, keep in mind, sir, that nothing I said in my post implied you are incorrect for thinking how you are thinking at all. 
It IS stupid to benefit for being punished (does that even make sense?). It is a horrible idea, and I’ve hated it since the beginning.
The problem is, when I started playing online, I hated them even MORE because I ate Ultras like nobody’s business. And eating Ultras really does fuel their stupidity and makes it really hard to accept playing the game at all. But once I started kinda understanding their place in the game, I’m willing to accept them and play the game around them, so to speak. So now I don’t hate them as much because I don’t die by them like I used to.
That being said, it’s still a stupid idea that really favors the loser and rewards bad play a lot more than they probably intended. The biggest saving grace, to me, is that you lose your entire meter regardless of how much is in there… If you activated a Level 1 Ultra and still kept the 25% you have left, THAT would have been a problem.
I keep telling myself that I need to play more SF4 so that I don’t get left in the dust while everyone else gets good at it. Still, I’ve found myself playing more HD Remix than SF4 since it came out.
I’m also not crazy about the Ultra system, but I don’t have much to add on that front. There’s a few other things that I find confounding with 4:
The online experience. While remix is also very frustrating online(Where’s that patch?!), it’s still miles ahead of SF4. This is probably the single biggest reason I haven’t been playing that game as much. I can’t hang out with my friends and play it. I can’t watch other people play so that I can learn shit. And when I do play, it takes ages to get a match and sometimes the lag feels terrible. If the online setup was exactly the same as remix, I’d probably play it a lot more.
The new input system is really frustrating. Between even more overlapping motions (ex. supers and ultras) and the insanely generous interpretation of motions, I find myself screwing up moves a LOT. I find it quite ironic that I have such a hard time doing the moves I want in a game that supposed to be so easy to do moves in.
Some of it feels too new to me. I get that it’s a new game and that it’ll take some time to learn. But I don’t get why some characters staple moves are so drastically different than in every other SF game. For example, Sakura can’t cross-up with MK any more. Dhalsims drills are basically worthless. Etc. Not only am I not used to the spacing/timing, but I don’t even feel like I know what I should be doing half the time. I’m sure I’ll get the hang of it eventually, but it’s frustrating. I watch opponents do blatantly stupid things like jump around with roundhouse and such and I’m not even sure how to punish it. It makes me feel retarded.
Wake-ups still feel weird to me. And it seems exceptionally hard to cross someone up on wake-up. Not sure what’s up with that. I guess I should just quit trying though, since it makes me reversal/ultra bait anyway.
I’m also not really crazy about the EX/Super system. Like James says, it seems like you almost never get a super. I suppose that’s OK because you get an Ultra every time you turn around. So fair enough…I guess. But I’m also not really crazy about the EX moves. Maybe they’re more awkward to me because I never played SF3 much, but it sometimes feels like too many options. Having to try to discern whether Chun threw a Kikoken or an EX-Kikoken just seems overly complicated to me. I also dont like that I can’t piano the buttons without doing an EX move. But I guess I should just quit doing that, since the reversal window is more leniant.
I dunno. If they fix the online up and I learn the game a bit more I’m sure it’ll become a lot more fun. Right now, it still feels a little weird and frustrating to me.