I dunno about the KO power bit, since Luigi can DThrow into NAir and kill at about 125%, while an Up B true combo kills at about 85%(Tested on FD). As I said, the match is momentum based. Sheik dominates the neutral and the edge guard game(and the game starts out in her favor because of it), but Luigi can make up a lot of damage very fast.
I wouldn’t use the whole ‘you can bait it’ thing in the argument because it’s true for both sides. A Dthrow from Luigi into nothing to bait an air dodge or reaction, Up B Punish. Same goes for on ground Bouncing Fishes. Luigi can spot dodge them for like a free Shoryuken punish as early as 60%(FD again).
As for edge guarding, I find Luigi’s not TERRIBLE. He can easily hit you if you take a defensive action(Say, airdodging a chop but hitting him with a NAir), and Luigi’s BAir has good KO action(killing from FD center at about 125%. For Reference sake, DK’s BAir kills at 130% and DDD’s at 110%), which makes it a potent edge guarding KO threat. Plus, chop has no KO power, but it pretty much denies anyone from returning. Luigi has some harsh air dominance thanks to his air moves having like no cooldown, but his floatiness and skittishness regarding recovery are what hurt.
I’m just saying, Sheik can be annoying and rack up damage, but Luigi gets in once or Luigi makes a good read, Sheik is going for a trip. I know my argument seems to be focused on power, but it’s the only one I really take issue with.
you present some things i forgot about, namely the KO situations off throw, but i honestly think luigi grabbing sheik is something she can easily avoid. here’s the main reason why: luigi has a problem where he slips away from the opponent if he shields something. most of the time, you can get around this by just perfect shielding or dash to spotdodge through projectiles. this is unfortunately not the case vs any charged needles as the multiple hits will still stop luigi from approaching if he perfect shields the first, and will likely hit him if he dodges a large enough set of needles.
and then there’s the whole thing of sheik’s aerial attacks + short hop movement being good enough to already avoid shieldgrabbing which, when put on top of him moving backwards when normal shielding, makes sheik so safe in this matchup.
most characters who can deal with sheik’s needles do so by taking to the air. luigi’s air movement is just not cut out for this plan.
i think it’s just really bad. i believe Boss is going to pick mario vs sheiks from now on, as i have seen a recent stream of Boss practicing his mario vs 2 sheiks (chu dat and another player i’m unfamiliar with)
And I believe that Sheik’s lack of killing power and Luigi’s strong punish potential help him in this matchup more than you give him credit. Sheik can get tons of free damage, but eventually she will have to base Luigi in a zone he’s comfortable with.
How do you guys feel about Sheik vs Rosalina? Please quantify
I think the match might be even. Rosa is one of the few characters needles are very ineffectual on, and her disjointed normals are much better than Sheiks. She can recover OK too, and can wall sheik out if done well.
Of course, when Sheik DOES get in, Rosalina can’t really do much to get her back out except throw
i think it is even or slight sheik advantage. the problem is that i see sheik advantage only being if sheik attempts a time out, lol. needle and safe pokes etc. until luma is done, then some damage on rosalina. repeat. it would take insane patience to play the matchup that way though.
a lot of sheiks would try to play aggro and sort of “ignore” luma, in the sense that they keep attacking luma away if she is in the way.
this can work, but obviously it is more risky, and rosalina has good enough moves to do scary punishes on good reads.
rosalina’s neutral game is also good enough to beat sheik’s aggressive neutral game.
finally, rosalina has the edge in KO power. she may not be as fast, but luma and her hitboxes do allow her to get into advantageous positions to land KO moves.
for sheik, luma makes it hard to go for Uair KOs after throws/ftilt/etc. also, Rosalina’s up b can make it somewhat hard to edgeguard her.
I’m on the lookout for Diddy counters(Not Sheik), since he seems to be such a problem. I don’t have much though. Other than his insane up air, I don’t really know why Diddy is so hard to deal with. The best I could come up with is Luigi for his boxing skills/punish game, Rosa for walling him out and throw combo breaking, and that’s about it.
he’s crazy fast, super safe on most attacks (even on block), great grab game that can lead to KO moves, bananas are still stupid, and his KO power got upped from brawl
Maybe Jiggs? Most of time he’s on the air, so it’s hard to be grabbed and can avoid bananas more easily. And it’s also hard to juggle. Diddy’s Uair is still a problem, but Jiggs Nair comes faster (I’m almost sure).
To be fair Po…I was the only Peach player that had a perfect record against every Diddy Kong in tourney (ADHD, Gnes, Ninjalink etc)…in brawl. I still think she does okay in this version as well, but its going to be slightly more difficult due to Diddy’s KO potential.
I’m not expert with matchups, but I think Mario is my wrost nightmare right now (I play R.O.B.). Cape makes gyros and lasers almost useless and once he gets a grab I eat tons of damage (everyone does, but R.O.B is easier to juggle). Fire balls are also annoying, and since my reflect is shit, and R.O.B’s aerial mobility isn’t that great, I can’t do much other than power shielding. The only thing at my favor is that R.O.B is heavy, and Mario have problems killing upwards but he can build damage pretty fast.
Reviving this thread because I’m curious on people’s opinions on Ryu’s matchups.
In terms of mobility and weight, Ryu reminds me a lot of Snake from Brawl. He also has deceptively good recovery.
Based on conversations in IRC, he probably loses to faster characters in general, but since most of those characters don’t have great KO potential, he can still do really well.
I think Ryu’s hardest matchups are going to be against dedicated zoners/characters that can keep a lot of projectiles/hitboxes on the screen, and fast, mobile characters that can weave in and out of his attack range.
Sheik is obviously his worst matchup, but Diddy*(yes, he’s still good despite losing up air… git gud), Sonic, Greninja, and ZSS are going to give him hell, Jab Hadoken or not… On the opposite side of the spectrum, Rosalina, Mega Man(finally got a good matchup for once)*, ROB, Link, Toon Link, Duck Hunt, and Mii Gunner immediately come to mind as characters that can out-lame patient fireball Ryu, or just rip right through it with better projectiles/ranged normals.
More footsie based characters will probably be slight advantage… Chars like Marth, Mewtwo, and Dedede jump out on that front.
Ryu’s major strengths are his solid all-around game and great recovery options, and once people get a handle on FADC “air-dashing” his mobility will be pretty good alongside Tatsumaki and his fox-trot dash. His biggest weakness is his over-reliance on SRK and F-Smash for kill moves… However, he has a dozen ways to combo into them or create pressure situations to land them. Also, his dair spikes at a unique angle and all his aerials are above average.
All in all, I think Ryu will find his place as a solid upper mid, as his toolset is versatile enough to keep him in the fight against pretty much anyone.
Eh… Jab Hado and Focus Attack will only get you so far…
Especially when you’re being BOUNCING FISH’D™ and Needled all over the place. Can’t focus more than one hit, and the Hadoken*(even Shakunetsu)* dissipates when hit.