Why the hate for Dead or Alive?

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
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EXM, correct me where ever I’m wrong. Anyway, here goes.

So, let me list a couple of reasons why DOA3.1/2 is better than DOA4:

1.No retarded stun system. In DOA4, you have to work much harder to reach the maximum stun threshold in order to give you optimal juggle height. In DOA3 it’s alot easier, meaning hardly as much guessing is involved and a more solid risk/reward system.

Also, one of the really annoying things about DOA4, is that you get stunned too easily, and you can stay stunned for a very annoying amount of time. Too many moves stun on normal hit, unlike in DOA3, making for more solid and less one sided gameplay.

2.The Free Step Dodge (FSD). You can nicely move in this game, it is possible to FSD attacks and even some strings; adding more to the ‘control of space’ element. Spacing also becomes key, and I’ll touch on this more abit later on.

Thing is, in DOA4, you can’t move for s**t. There is no such thing as FSD, try it, and you will get hit and put into that annoying stun situation. Also, the moves track way too well, and you will be caught up in another stun again when hit. There are SS attacks, but only for some characters, and even then they aren’t as useful or as good as the FSD.

3.Wall Tech. They removed this in DOA4, pure idiocy.

4.Guaranteed launchers/wall rape. Now, if you knocked someone into a wall (including dangerzones) in DOA3, your opponent would be unable to do anything, giving you a free lextra hit, and this is where you go for a launcher, into a nice juggle. In DOA4, you can still counter even after being hit into a wall, wth?! Yes, it’s more stupidity.

5.Guard crushes/frame advantage. This really is a standard for most good fighting games out there. In DOA3 you are able to guard crush, meaning that if you hit them with either a charged or strong move, you will break them out of their blocking stance, and put them at a frame disadvantage. Obviously not just guard crushes, but certain moves also left you with the upper hand, for example Jann Lee’s 66k; if you’re opponent tries to attack, yours will come out first, it’s easy to jab them out. So what this incorporates is frame traps; playing safe; and overall more solid gameplay, so whif punishing and overall defensive play is favoured here. Well, you should all know what frame adv incorporates.

Now to DOA4. ZERO FRAME ADVANTAGE! Nothing, at most you can get +1, but that doesn’t help at all. It’s so retarded that there are guard crsuhes in this game, yet they do nothing. I mean, you actually take the risk of fully charging your move, hitting a guarding opponent with it; they go into the animation of being hit out of their guard, only to be compleetly safe right after?! It still resets both oppontns to a neutral state. Completely useless. This game favours offense way too much over defense, and offense=randomness, mixing it up like mad, nothing but annoying guesses and random gameplay.

  1. Mix Up’s. Difference between DOA3 and DOA4 here, is that you can win without going low; which is the opposite for DOA4. In DOA4 if you don’t mix up on the offense with highs/ids and lows all the time, you won’t get anywhere. Which leads me to my next point. But before that, I would also like to mention that, you can get punished for using low moves randomly; you can get free low throws even if a low hit connects on NH; or you can go with a crouch combo, which I’ll explain later.

  2. 2in1’s and 3in1’s. They actually had some of this in the original DOA4 (before the patch), but now they’re gone. DOA3 has quite alot of these. Again meaning more solid gameplay, little to no need for high/low mix-ups. You have to play safer, or suffer the consequences; it doesn’t support DOA4’s reckless style of play.

8.Counter damage. Even thoughDOA3 had a 3 way counter system, unlike DOA4 and DOA2U’s 4 way system…it also dealt the most reasonable amount of damage. DOA2U does insane counter damage, and DOA4 does less, but it’s still too much. DOA3 counter damage is reasonable, but there are still flaws like the counter window and the fact that it was only a 3 way counter system.

Funny thing is, I played the X05 version of DOA4, and the counter frame window was boom. 11 frames it was, half that of what it is now. Why Itagaki removed this, I don’t know, this was clearly a game aimed at newbies.

9.Crouch combos (props to EXM for this one). So his words exactly:
Crouch combos are strings, attacks that combo naturally on a crouching opponent.

Leon 3pp
Jann Lee 6pk
Hayabusa 3ppp
Kasumi 3pk,3pp, 3p2k
Lei 3pp (I think)
Brad 3pp
Tina {3}pp *I think

I know there are way more but I can’t remember them off the top of my head.

So yes, again this implies playing safe, and proper punishment. Unlike in DOA4, where you could only punish your opponent with a weak throw.

10.Fuzzy guarding. (again props to EXM for jogging my memory on this one) So again, I’ll quote him:

Fuzzy guarding is the act of crouch dashing then canceling CD with Guard to duck a throw and block a mid at seemingly the same time.

Now this is also in DOA4, but because DOA3 just has more fluid movement (you can Korean backdash abit better ec), and and reinforces spacing, pnushiment and playing safe alot more. I thought I’d mention it anyway.

  1. Priority. Priority in DOA4 is almost non-existant, and the ones that do exist, are friggin useless. This means that grapplers get screwed over; it means that the game favours speed too much, which also means that there is less need to be safe, again, reckless play.

  2. Ground/Oki game. Yes, this is where we think DOA4 wins for once, you know, since you can hit grounded opponents with a variety of attacks instead just a 2p/k or 2p+k. But no, DOA4 is a retarded game…if you hit your opponent too early, your move will clip through them, and you will eat a wake-up kick and be put into a stun; and, if you attack them too late (even if they are still otg) you’re move will still clip through them. Stupidly, there is an ‘in-between’ timelimit and it’s annoying. It also doesn’t help that DOA4 has 3 wake-up kicks, just more guessing and randomness…joy Rolling Eyes And it happens quite often, people being KO’d be wake-up kicks, even in high level play, and it’s just stupid.

  3. Speed I’ll sum this up quickly. DOA3=tactical pace. DOA4=random pace. You don’t have enough time to think in DOA4, the game is abit too fast.

14.Glitches When it comes to glitches, DOA4 is almost unrivalled. You will see the wierdest crap happen. Counters doing no damage; falling through stages; well, some stuff I can’t even explain, so here are some videos:
[media=youtube]3HYuPtWZkV4[/media]


[media=youtube]AdPsfmC0FU8&NR[/media]
There was one more with the falling through the stage glitch, but I can’t find it.

  1. Music and stages. Ok these have nothing to do with gameplay, but I feel like telling you guys that DOA3’s soundtrack is infinitley batter than DOA4’s, and the stages are alot better. DOA3 felt wonderful, like it belonged to the arcades, like it was mad or published by Sega. It just had that old skool fg feel.

There are probably some things I’m forgetting, but I think that’s enough. All in all, DOA3 is a more tactical game than DOA4; it enforces spacing, punishment, playing safe, thinking about things more than you would in DOA4. This game took skill. In DOA4, skill just comes from punishing with throws, and being random. Yes, random play wins in DOA4. DOA3 is a more defensive game, hayate is one of the only characters that is supposed to be played offensively.

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Well in this case I mean counter hits more then anything, thats really what alot of Goh’s gameplan is based off. Sabakis are a pain in the ass

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A good post Aion, there are some minor inncorrect things but overall good post. KBD is the same for both DoA4 and Doa3 but in Doa4 some characters were faster without ever using it where as Doa3 for it was essential unless you just sucked at backdashing so you might as well Back Dash Walk.

Also that CC list is inncorrect and unfinished, I’ll make sure to go back one day and finish it, thanx though.

Another thing about Doa3 was teching from the air was also a hell of alot harder than in Doa4, where you basically can mash Free and you’ll tech.

Needless to say Doa3 was a great game.

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1.No retarded stun system. In DOA4, you have to work much harder to reach the maximum stun threshold in order to give you optimal juggle height. In DOA3 it’s alot easier, meaning hardly as much guessing is involved and a more solid risk/reward system.

Also, one of the really annoying things about DOA4, is that you get stunned too easily, and you can stay stunned for a very annoying amount of time. Too many moves stun on normal hit, unlike in DOA3, making for more solid and less one sided gameplay.

How many times do moves actually hit in normal hit in EITHER game?!?!?? If a stun is done, it’s usually on CH. The times you get a stun on normal hit are usually if you’ve blocked incorrectly, or are getting whiff punished and are rewarded with a stun. Then you’re factoring out that the offender STILL has complete advantage to form a mindgame on you with the stun system, or go for the most efficient and launch right away.

2.The Free Step Dodge (FSD). You can nicely move in this game, it is possible to FSD attacks and even some strings; adding more to the ‘control of space’ element. Spacing also becomes key, and I’ll touch on this more abit later on.

Thing is, in DOA4, you can’t move for s**t. There is no such thing as FSD, try it, and you will get hit and put into that annoying stun situation. Also, the moves track way too well, and you will be caught up in another stun again when hit. There are SS attacks, but only for some characters, and even then they aren’t as useful or as good as the FSD.

It is just as easy to KBD in DOA4, and evades just as many things. FSD was toned down, I agree, but you can’t help but think - that shit in 3.1 with FSD was glitchy. It was great, but I believe it was a mistake for the better sent down from the gods. Heh.

3.Wall Tech. They removed this in DOA4, pure idiocy.
But we gained wall wakeup kicks, and wall siderolling

4.Guaranteed launchers/wall rape. Now, if you knocked someone into a wall (including dangerzones) in DOA3, your opponent would be unable to do anything, giving you a free lextra hit, and this is where you go for a launcher, into a nice juggle. In DOA4, you can still counter even after being hit into a wall, wth?! Yes, it’s more stupidity.
It’s more mindgames, with more reward. Team Ninja intended this 100%. The game keeps going until they’re punished or in the air.

5.Guard crushes/frame advantage. This really is a standard for most good fighting games out there. In DOA3 you are able to guard crush, meaning that if you hit them with either a charged or strong move, you will break them out of their blocking stance, and put them at a frame disadvantage. Obviously not just guard crushes, but certain moves also left you with the upper hand, for example Jann Lee’s 66k; if you’re opponent tries to attack, yours will come out first, it’s easy to jab them out. So what this incorporates is frame traps; playing safe; and overall more solid gameplay, so whif punishing and overall defensive play is favoured here. Well, you should all know what frame adv incorporates.

Now to DOA4. ZERO FRAME ADVANTAGE! Nothing, at most you can get +1, but that doesn’t help at all. It’s so retarded that there are guard crsuhes in this game, yet they do nothing. I mean, you actually take the risk of fully charging your move, hitting a guarding opponent with it; they go into the animation of being hit out of their guard, only to be compleetly safe right after?! It still resets both oppontns to a neutral state. Completely useless. This game favours offense way too much over defense, and offense=randomness, mixing it up like mad, nothing but annoying guesses and random gameplay.

Did anyone else look over this post?!?!? Frame Advantage = Defensive while no Frame Advantage = Offensive? Are you guys freaking mad! If you’re getting advantage from BLOCKING, instead of the defender getting a disadvantage from BLOCKING, then the game becomes more OFFENSIVE. DOA4 at higher levels is indeed more defensive because every move done puts you at some kind of a frame disadvantage. I’ll agree that guard crushes mean absolutely nothing in DOA4, but saying Frame Advantage gives for more defensive gameplay is ignorant. It requires one of the player to keep blocking, giving the other player a continuous offense. Isn’t that exactly what offensive is in the first place?

  1. Mix Up’s. Difference between DOA3 and DOA4 here, is that you can win without going low; which is the opposite for DOA4. In DOA4 if you don’t mix up on the offense with highs/ids and lows all the time, you won’t get anywhere. Which leads me to my next point. But before that, I would also like to mention that, you can get punished for using low moves randomly; you can get free low throws even if a low hit connects on NH; or you can go with a crouch combo, which I’ll explain later.

Somebody has been playing online a little too much, or has a poor defense. In DOA3 and DOA4, lows get punished if blocked. That much is obvious. I don’t think arguments can be based so easily on ONLINE PLAY, or poor defense. That’s just ignorance at its finest.

  1. 2in1’s and 3in1’s. They actually had some of this in the original DOA4 (before the patch), but now they’re gone. DOA3 has quite alot of these. Again meaning more solid gameplay, little to no need for high/low mix-ups. You have to play safer, or suffer the consequences; it doesn’t support DOA4’s reckless style of play.

They want the offensive to be a continuous mindgame. The 2-in-1’s that do remain are well placed to provide a nice advantage. Some 2-in-1’s still remain for Busa, Hayate, Kasumi, Jann Lee, Leon, Bayman, Christie, Gen Fu, Kokoro and Spartan.

8.Counter damage. Even thoughDOA3 had a 3 way counter system, unlike DOA4 and DOA2U’s 4 way system…it also dealt the most reasonable amount of damage. DOA2U does insane counter damage, and DOA4 does less, but it’s still too much. DOA3 counter damage is reasonable, but there are still flaws like the counter window and the fact that it was only a 3 way counter system.

Funny thing is, I played the X05 version of DOA4, and the counter frame window was boom. 11 frames it was, half that of what it is now. Why Itagaki removed this, I don’t know, this was clearly a game aimed at newbies.

Comparing 3-point 0/22/8 and LARGEST LIFE to 4-point 0/22/8 and NORMAL LIFE. WTF, MATE?!? It should also be noted that in guard stun and hit stun, it is more difficult to counter in DOA4. It should ALSO be noted that in-stun, holds do the same damage as they did in DOA3.1, even with the more difficult 4-point system.

9.Crouch combos (props to EXM for this one). So his words exactly:
Crouch combos are strings, attacks that combo naturally on a crouching opponent.

Leon 3pp
Jann Lee 6pk
Hayabusa 3ppp
Kasumi 3pk,3pp, 3p2k
Lei 3pp (I think)
Brad 3pp
Tina {3}pp *I think

I know there are way more but I can’t remember them off the top of my head.

So yes, again this implies playing safe, and proper punishment. Unlike in DOA4, where you could only punish your opponent with a weak throw.

I agree, crouch combos are great. You get no argument from me here. I would like to add that obviously, some moves that do not usually stun on normal hit, will stun a crouching opponent.

10.Fuzzy guarding. (again props to EXM for jogging my memory on this one) So again, I’ll quote him:

Fuzzy guarding is the act of crouch dashing then canceling CD with Guard to duck a throw and block a mid at seemingly the same time.

Now this is also in DOA4, but because DOA3 just has more fluid movement (you can Korean backdash abit better ec), and and reinforces spacing, pnushiment and playing safe alot more. I thought I’d mention it anyway.

It’s… exactly the same in both games.

  1. Priority. Priority in DOA4 is almost non-existant, and the ones that do exist, are friggin useless. This means that grapplers get screwed over; it means that the game favours speed too much, which also means that there is less need to be safe, again, reckless play.

If speed is higher, and frame disadvantage is higher - it promotes… BLOCKING. If your character has more safe moves and more frame advantage, there’s less likely situations where you will be unsafe to be punished. In DOA4, unless you’re Tina, Hitomi, Kokoro, and a few other characters, 90% of your movelist is unsafe. Therefore you need to poke correctly, or you’re getting punished for ~50 points. around 1/5 of a bar on normal health. Pressure characters need to attack, grappler characters need to block/parry/punish and gain advantage. I have no clue how this actually promotes reckless play, because you do not have a priority move that will beat out a variety of moves. DOA4 is frame-based to the end.

  1. Ground/Oki game. Yes, this is where we think DOA4 wins for once, you know, since you can hit grounded opponents with a variety of attacks instead just a 2p/k or 2p+k. But no, DOA4 is a retarded game…if you hit your opponent too early, your move will clip through them, and you will eat a wake-up kick and be put into a stun; and, if you attack them too late (even if they are still otg) you’re move will still clip through them. Stupidly, there is an ‘in-between’ timelimit and it’s annoying. It also doesn’t help that DOA4 has 3 wake-up kicks, just more guessing and randomness…joy Rolling Eyes And it happens quite often, people being KO’d be wake-up kicks, even in high level play, and it’s just stupid.

People that don’t tech in DOA4 are stupid as hell. If they’re in the groundstun, they’ll get hit, obviously. There are also moves that force in the ground game. The only real times you might be facing wakeup kicks, are after a punishment throw where you just got something guaranteed, or the opponent hit the environment and you got extra damage on them. Now you have to evade or block a wakeup kick with execution, to gain even more damage off the opponent. Heh.

  1. Speed I’ll sum this up quickly. DOA3=tactical pace. DOA4=random pace. You don’t have enough time to think in DOA4, the game is abit too fast.

**Oh no! It’s too fast for me! I don’t want to train and up my reaction for it! Fast != Random. Seriously, that’s one of the most idiotic arguments I’ve heard in my life!

14.Glitches When it comes to glitches, DOA4 is almost unrivalled. You will see the wierdest crap happen. Counters doing no damage; falling through stages; well, some stuff I can’t even explain, so here are some videos:
[media=youtube]3HYuPtWZkV4[/media]


[media=youtube]AdPsfmC0FU8&NR[/media]
There was one more with the falling through the stage glitch, but I can’t find it.

Glitchy movement can be done quite the same in DOA3 and DOA4. As for that first one, why would somebody base an argument off of ONLINE PACKET LOSS. Seriously. We’re talking about offline play with both games… RIGHT? As for any other glitches - try finding them on a competitive game on a regular basis. That will never happen.

  1. Music and stages. Ok these have nothing to do with gameplay, but I feel like telling you guys that DOA3’s soundtrack is infinitley batter than DOA4’s, and the stages are alot better. DOA3 felt wonderful, like it belonged to the arcades, like it was mad or published by Sega. It just had that old skool fg feel.

INSIGNIFICANT.

There are probably some things I’m forgetting, but I think that’s enough. All in all, DOA3 is a more tactical game than DOA4; it enforces spacing, punishment, playing safe, thinking about things more than you would in DOA4. This game took skill. In DOA4, skill just comes from punishing with throws, and being random. Yes, random play wins in DOA4. DOA3 is a more defensive game, hayate is one of the only characters that is supposed to be played offensively.

**DOA4 is a more defensive game with lack of priority or frame advantage. It ALSO enforces spacing (which is the same, pretty much.), punishment (because remember, more moves are unsafe, especially with the lack of frame advantage), and if you don’t play safe, you’re punished 100% of the time against a good player. I shall note again that it’s more difficult in DOA4 to poke and play safe, because with most characters, they barely have any safe moves, let alone advantage on block. Random play does NOT win in DOA4, quite the opposite. You see the same players placing the same ways, unless the rules are changed. I’ve had a hell of a lot of experience in the game, obviously a lot more then you, and I know what works, and what doesn’t. Random play gets you killed. It gets you punished, reactive string held, punished some more, etc… You want to try countering randomly? In DOA4 we play on NORMAL HEALTH, you counter randomly, you’re getting half a bar taken off easily by the opponent’s best throw. Seriously, this is the same shit Brady posted like 6-7 months ago when he was frustrated at losing in the game, because he had little to no experience in it in the first place. (Not to mention, last time I heard, he LIKES the game now.) Most of it wasn’t true then, and most of it isn’t true now. Seriously, I’ve played this game enough to know that most of those points are complete bullshit.

I love DOA3.1, and I love DOA4.1, for quite different reasons. But not for any of the points you stated in the first place (Except FSD and Crouch Combos, <3.)

DOA4 is quite solid. I’ll explain more later.**

105

Exactly what I was going to post

BTW Jann Lee’s 6pk is not a 2in1.

106

Intresting…

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Wow, you guys are pumping a lot of info into this thread about DOA that most people don’t know about. But since most people can’t comprehend the actual skill that it takes to play this game because they are playing against there scrub friends most of the time. They’ll never acknowledge that this game has any depth. All they’ll ever see is the few ppp or ppkk combos that they know and how to use middle counters all day to defeat their afermentioned scrub friend. I had some friends that thought DOA was a simple game since they mostly played amongst themselves. I don’t know if they were Tekken/VF fanboys or what. But I showed them that DOA is a very deep 3D fighters. I didn’t even have to do anything overly complicated. I just used high standing attacks and they couldn’t figure out why they couldn’t counter any of my attacks. One of my favorite things about DOA is that you had the ability to cancel any of your attacks with the guard button, that makes for some pretty interesting tactics.

ONEZ

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Thanks for the corrections Xdest and EXM. Though Xdest, I think you misunderstood some things. Either way, I still don’t support DOA4’s philosophy of play. Some points I am wrong, yes, which is why I asked to be corrected, but you also seem to take some parts where I am right, and say “Well TN intended for this”.

I’ll read your post in a more in-depth manner and give you a reply sometime later.

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Yo Xdest, chill out. Most of the stuff you point out is personal preference between players or I already corrected. You might like percentage based DoA4, but I personally like the solid fighting game mechanic behind DoA3. Aion is of the same opinion as me, slide, and probably 90% of the people who tried DoA4. They found the system flaky and weren’t interested.

There is simply not much to find in DoA4. Especially with the removal of most natural combos, and I’m talking about the whole host of them and not this PP, PK, P6P trash. Hate to break it to ya but DoA3 hold damage was STILL bad, including Hayabusa. DoA4 holds do more damage overall than DoA3 holds, what does that tell you? No game should have 90+ dmg holds, NO GAME. One action/risk should not do more damage than a whole flow chart (attacking) of actions and risks.

Just because a game has frame advantage does not mean it will be an offensive game, if you played 3.1 with somebody who knew what he was doing you’d understand what I’m saying. Not like it matters cause 3.1 is pretty much dead.

And if something ain’t done soon, DoA4 is gonna see it in the graveyard soon.

This argument is over done and pointless cause DoA3.1 is game that 99% of the population has never played (or in your case played competitively) and NEVER WILL PLAY. DoA 4 is here, flaky as I think it is, and it’s playable at least (unlike 2U). Last thing we need is more arguments throwing unsupported opinions on both sides.

110

Actually, that’s wrong. He said the FSD in 3.1 was a mistake, the only reason he is saying that though is because the cartwheel was broken. He doesn’t want to get in a trap saying that he loved the FSD in 3.1 but then be told that it was broken. The SS moves and the Wall teching are all based off of the FSD system. Changing the FSD system changes the evasion of those other two. And I find 3.1’s FSD system as glitchy as VF4e when I do a step-evade-attack and end up tackling air behind the person, in other words I don’t see it as glitchy. Even the so called “You can do 88P with Gen Fu and hit the person in his back”, yes, when someone does a forward stepping attack, just like DOA4.

Here’s the problem with talking 3.1 to Itagaki, 1) He doesn’t play fighting games 2) He was promoting his upcoming DOA4 where he had spent many many hours working on. 3) Telling him something that was good in 3 that was removed in 4 is a dis to him.

A year before DOA4 came out Itagaki was interviewed talking about how he wants to make the most hardcore game ever. Then as it gets closer to release you can see him talking about how “All Fighting games are, are macros where you just have to hit one move and you win. I don’t want that in my game” (sorta paraphrasing, i’ll go get the exact quote later) He doesn’t play fighting games competitively, he just makes a game then moves on to the next.

See, this is why talking to him serves really no purpose because he’s a developer. He’ll spin the story to serve his latest game. He gets no benefit out of someone buying a game that isn’t in production any more. For example, I said that there are many people who enjoy the competitive play in DOA3. What did he say to me?

He told me he made DOA3 for single-play. Yeah. Sure. That’s why you would have a national tournament for $5000. That’s why there are no unlockables, based on unlockables alone this single player game would be over in 1 hour. That’s why you bothered to tone down the cartwheel. That’s why you bothered to change the system so fucking much over doa2. If it were single-play you’d just slap doa2 on with new stages and more unlockable costumes and cg art.

And for those who may give me gripe that DOA2U had a lot of unlockables for not being a single-player game with XBL: DOA2 was released in 1999 with 4 costumes per character with Kasumi and Ayane with 5. DOA2U was the same fighting system, so they didn’t need to worry about tweaking/balancing the game. All they had to do was add some extras, XBL, and slope/ceiling throws and tweak the stages.

Did anyone know that no one in Japan or Europe felt Bass was top 2? No, it was USA. It was because of our damn vids of how to break the wake-up game with Hayate, the wall combos, and the Bass pickup that the changes came to DOA4. Surprisingly, Itagaki hadn’t seen our vids until right after X06 when a member of Tecmo showed the stuff to him. (How Bass’ pickup was still guaranteed and +11 and the build had a followup to the Buffalo horn that guard broke 2i1 into a hit throw). The pick-up alone was the reason he wanted not guaranteed ground attacks (which is why 4.2 is rumored to remove untechables) and being able to dh out of guard break. That’s why most of the changes had occured post X06. What did Itagaki do to the wake-up: Well if you add a third kick people can’t jump over it. It doesn’t matter about having another option off wake-up, if you dh low you dodge the high and hit the low, if you dh mid you can get hit by the high or the low. it’s still the same 50/50 wake-up kick game as DOA3. Then you have the wall-tech game.

In DOA3, if you teched off the wall, that was it, just like DOA2 you couldn’t attack off your tech. Because of the FSD system, if the player who teched went to the background and the player who attacked went into the foreground (or just standing at neutral) both were in neutral. However, if both went the same way one could still provide pressure against the wall, typically it was most advisable to do a throw since most players would block after a tech. For video of this (my Jann Lee isn’t that great and this was 2 years ago) check out 02:30
[media=youtube]q42vrSRtzN0[/media]

DOA3 had it’s problems, but so does DOA4. I enjoy playing both games. I do not like how it’s a constant fast-paced mix-up. That’s my preference, it doesn’t matter really. 3.1 is six-feet under and 4 is what is currently played.

Oh and to Tatguy who said MASTER is the owner of DOAC. He’s not, he’s just the buddy-buddy with the owner.

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Yeah. Like a few others on here like Tragic, Afro Cole, etc. you get into the game and youre presently surprised at what it has to offer at first. But once you attempt to go deeper it just fell flat IMO. I guess that proves why the game was hot for a min over here, and then everyone just stopped playing it abruptly.

That’s alright though, i mean it’s still a decent game and stuff though. Just it couldve been soooo much more.

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You are wrong here, we are not factoring possibilities or whatever, we are using facts. Fact-- DOA4 has more attacks that stun on neutral than DOA3. Also, I’ve watched DOA3.1 matches where the players very often landed neutral hits; these hits like Jann Lee’s p,p,2k,k–the low kick would hit on neutral but that wasn’t the point…the point was that it was a safe string which granted you an advantage over the opponent…a tech trap

Secondly, efficiency is more valid in DOA3. DOA4’s annoyingly large stun threshhold makes for more risky play, and reuiqres too many ensuing stuns to actually achieve decent launch height.

Also, “If a stun is done, it’s usually on CH.”–this is applying to DOA4, so what does that say about the game? Either the players aren’t playing solidly, or the game is just way too offensive and revolves around a retarded stun system. DOA4’s stun system does not contribute to solid play, it contributes to a random nature. You see, if someone is in a stun, how do you keep them from guessing right and countering? By NOT following an orthodox pattern and being random in your mix-ups. Anopther reason of why it’s random, is the fact that your opponent can counter out of stuns…now, say he goes for a random counter and to constitute with your unorthodox mix-ups, and succeeds with the counter, what do you call that? Random play. Sure, you may bait counters and go with a throw, but that again is just another option (other than going, high/low/mid with your attacks) given to the offender, and that too can be countered (not DH’d). So with such a range of options, NONE OF WHICH ARE GUARANTEED; once someone is in a stun, this game becomes rock, paper, scissors AND fire.

It is so retarded, because at the same time, you can be rewarded too easily and cursed too easily.

Err, FSD was fixed completely in DOA3.2. And something is better than nothing. How can you call your game a 3D fighter if you can’t even move properly? Why have such innovative stages if you can’t even use them to your advantage because it’s so hard to move and position yourself?

And? That only increases the number of random situations. Also, why remove it when they could’ve just left it and added the extras?

TN intended this, so does that mean it’s a good thing? They’re just removing the number of gauranteed situations; they’re just lessening the punishment for being unsafe and stupid. If someone got you into a wall, they should be rewarded for it, and you should be punished. It seems like DOA’s answer to everything is “Just counter!”. Shit, that should be Itagaki’s new motto. “You in a pickle of a situation? You been outplayed and don’t know what to do? Just counter!” It’s stupid, someone could work hard to put you into a stun, reach the maximum thresh hold, only to eat a TON of damage from a counter when he tries to launch his/her opponent.

You misunderstood horribly–actually you just made up things. I never said what you said in that first sentence of yours; that was just the general view of DOA3 being a more defensive game. So about half of your post is pretty much irrelevant.

Here’s how it is. In DOA3, you are only offensive with safe attacks on a blocking opponent. Safe offense is a form of defense, as it put’s you in a defensive advantage at the end of the string…at the ned of the string, YOU ARE SAFE and may switch to defense if you want, a defense with more options than the former defender mind you (as your moves can beat out their’s)

DOA3.1 is defensive because you wait for a whiff to punish severely. You can’t be offnesive because there is no retarded stun system, and because you will be predictable. This is why high level players tend to BLOCK after a safe string. It’s a battle of mind; you are trading blows until one of you makes a mistake…that’s the prinicple, and it can be built on, with baiting, positioning, 50/50’s etc.

Not to say DOA4 isn’t defensive, but that game is all about playing defensive and punshing with lame throws, instead of attacks. DOA3 is also defensive because of it’s more methodical pace…it’s not as fast as DOA4. DOA4 is offensive because of it’s stun system; fast paced, and even the lack of control of space makes it more offensive…I hope you can see how.

I didn’t say on block, I said on NH. But I’m probably wrong here, as i think Tina and hayate’s 1p can be low thrown on NH.

What 2-in-1’s exist in DOA4 that weren’t taken out in the first patch? either way, there are alot less of them, and that just enforces going for lame height launchers right off the bat, or again, mixing up. All the useful ones I remember were taken out. Then again, I may be wrong here, I haven’t played this game for a year, let alone had proper offline comp with it. Either way, DOA4 was still stripped of some depth.

What? Sorry, didn’t understand that first statement properly, be abit more clear about it–I just hope it isn’t another one of your assumptions.

As for the rest. I never knew it is more difficult to counter out of a stun in DOA4, and I don’t know if I should believe it. That would however, be irrlevant if true though, as it makes little difference; AND there’s the fact that if you time your counter correctly, you can block afterwards :confused:

I know about that last statement; but overall, DOA4 counters do more damage, that was my point, and it still stands–you’re just slimming down the overall picture for your convenience. I give DOA4 props for the 4point system, and I think everyone does.

EXM corrected me (or rather himself) on some of those, so yeah.

10.Fuzzy guarding. (again props to EXM for jogging my memory on this one) So again, I’ll quote him:

Fuzzy guarding is the act of crouch dashing then canceling CD with Guard to duck a throw and block a mid at seemingly the same time.

Now this is also in DOA4, but because DOA3 just has more fluid movement (you can Korean backdash abit better ec), and and reinforces spacing, pnushiment and playing safe alot more. I thought I’d mention it anyway.

It’s… exactly the same in both games.
[/quote]

That was a retarded statement by me, my bad.

I think you’re wrong here, or missing the point (and I already know all of what you said). Priority adds for more situational gameplay. It adds more depth and options for the offender, and limits what the defender can do. It forces defenders into situations which are more favourable for the offender; this is something incorporated in most fighting games, and constitutes to the CONTROLLING OF PACE. Putting people where you want them, that’s something the offender should be able to do…shutting down options; forcing others; putting the flow onto your hands.

In DOA4, the problem with speed over priority, is evident…more CH’s. This is because both players are now trying to attack faster than another, constituting reckless play. Also, with priority, yu can react to a move, with another move…something important. Regardless, stripping depth instead of building on it is not a good thing.

You seem to have ignored the part where I mentioned how your attacks would clip through opponents. There are also advantages to staying on the ground mind you. The oki game is a step up from DOA3, but needs to be done properly. DOA3’s is still better though, ala Bass pickup if you use the right combo, time things right etc. So yes, guaranteed options off of a ground game, something DOA4 lacks. It can shut down the grounded opponents options in DOA3, whcich can only be done in DOA4 if you sacrifice a juggle for an untechable–which in itself is stupid… you can finish your juggle in DOA3, get ina a ground hit and be shut down your opponents options that way. Much better, no?

Name me a good 3d fighter as fast as DOA4 please. It’s not too much, but it really doesn’t help. It is not an idiotic arguement at all. 2d fighters can afford to be fast. And not saying that you can’t react to things in DOA4, but that you can’t react to everything efficiently. It is mostly anticipation, and not reaction. Everyone can block sweeps on reaction, most can counter OH’s, but I don’t think we’ve seen this game played at a high enough level to really talk about this subject matter. I may be wrong here, and I’m ready to admit that.

Okay, debunk the online glitch’s. As for the other glitches, there are some that effect gameplay on a regular basis. Ever launched someone and had them lag at the top (this is offline btw), I’m sure you know of this, heck everyone does. Places like that monkey stage where doing a launcher throw such as the Izuna, and your opponent spazzes out at the top. It’s even worse in the dino stage, as it happens near every tree. And my point wasn’t about glitches happening on a regular basis, it was that this is one of the most glitchy fighters I’ve played…and the glitches are pretty random and CAN effect play…like pulling off a counter with Bass and getting no damage off of it; or like, using two strong moves at the same time, making you and your opponent somehow switch sides.

What part of, “this has nothing to do with gameplay” didn’t you understand? I’m just reinforcing how DOA3’s stages and music blow away that of a next-gen game. It does effect the feel of the game, maybe not the gameplay, but that’s not everything. I was just talking on a more casual level.

You’ll find the answers to your last paragraph in my other posts. I’ll just say this: DOA4 is NOT solid.

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“I haven’t played this game for a year, let alone had proper offline comp with it. Either way, DOA4 was still stripped of some depth.”

Which makes most of your points pretty much null and void. In that same year, I’ve played DOA4 around 30,000 times, online and offline. You’re repeating the same shit Brady posted in his “3.1 vs. 4” topic a half a year ago while he was frustrated at the game and getting no experience, and it’s still bullshit.

When mindgames are taken to account - so are both player’s habits. Even players that seem random - have a pattern and DO have habits you can bank on and punish. I’ve got a hell of a lot of experience in this game, and as I said, I know exactly what it takes to win, and being random will get you absolutely no where. The stun game itself is playing the percentages and banking off your opponent’s habits and patterns correctly. Speaking of which, I said most of the stuns come from CH, that is true. In high level play, stuns do not happen as often as you would think, especially with players spacing correctly. Also, you are still not taking into account slow escape, in which people trying to continue often a 2-3 move threshold will get their stun shaken off by good players.

As for glitches, if I personally don’t get them often in thousands of games (hell, probably have seen one every once in 5000 matches, and that’s being generous, (except for the grappler wakeup glitch that is.)), I don’t know how you can see how that kind of frequency effects competitive play. The only known ones that have affected competitive play are bayman’s/tina’s/leon’s wakeup glitch.

As for holds… 3-point and a bit less damage, and 4-point and a bit more damage. In-stun, it’s the same damage. The difference seems a LOT more because the norm for playing DOA3 is on LARGEST health, while the norm for playing DOA4 is on NORMAL health. The difference isn’t all that large in the first place.

In DOA4, FSD is meant for environmental positions, and evading lunging attacks. I don’t completely agree with it, but that’s how it is. As for KBD movement, I don’t really see the difference in it with either game.

Also, I’ll say it again, upping the speed = less defense is RETARDED LOGIC. Adapt and react to the new speed, damn.

Another thing, 1P’s can be punished by grapplers on NH, since they have 4 frame low throws.

As for Team Ninja’s philosophy with mindgames, either you take it or leave it, it’s a different fighting game with a different philosophy. They wanted the main skill required for the game to be adaptation and mindgames. As I said, if you don’t play it, that’s fine, but it doesn’t make that style of fighting game any less viable. This does NOT constitute stripping depth. It constitutes a change in the formula. Blocking > Advantage, instead of any time Blocking > Disadvantage, or somebody overprioritizing you. When you’re blocking, you’re at an advantage 100% of the time. Therefore if they’re unsafe, you punish, if not you’re at an advantage > mindgame. You both attack, the blocking opponent will win everytime. Which forces the opponent into defense, or they personally face a CH guaranteed (unless they’re at a miniscule disadvantage, like -2 or -3). If you don’t like the style of game - keep not playing it, but you can’t say it isn’t solid if you don’t play it often enough to experience it. Saying it’s random to somebody with a year of experience in the game over you that HAS been dominating in the same game (and, you know, actually PLAYING the damn game) is pretty weird as well. The formula is fundamentally different in DOA4. Constant adaptation.

EXM is on the right page here. Most of the shit you’re arguing about with me is personal preference. And I actually love DOA4.

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DoA series is basically like VF series, except a lot flashier and not as difficult to learn as VF.

I still prefer VF though. It feels a lot more complete than DoA, although, that wouldn’t explain the constant upgrades the game has gotten.

There are two possible reasonings for the difference in upgrades of VF and DoA.

  1. VF consistently upgrades to balance the game out or DoA is balanced from the get go and doesn’t need upgrades. (I’d assume none of this is true at all)

  2. VF needs to upgrade because game was faulty to begin with or DoA doesn’t care to balance their game (which also may not be true because I don’t care for DoA enough to find out if they do upgrades for balance issues nor do I believe Sega makes shitty 1st version fighting games).

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DOA like Smash Bros. is kind of but not purposely the fighting game for people who don’t play fighting games.people see that there’s hot girls and stage disasters so they are tempted to buy it.Sadly I think Tecmo was trying to appeal to the average fighting game player without copying anyone else.tey did a good job o no copying but as soon as they fix the few problems they have especially there damn counter system, more fighting game players will want to play this on a competitive level.

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But the game is random, at any one time you CANNOT force me to do what you want me to do. The counter system prevents that 100%. In fact i LIMIT YOUR OPTIONS just like you limit mine.

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Really, don’t debunk all my thoughts with your “I’ve played offline alot more than you” elitist comments. I know you have, and you’re only rubbing it in that the DOA scene in the UK is dead.

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the counter system is part of what i make people use to force them to do what i want them to do so i dont know where you get that from

and this is coming from someone who is only interested in controlling people in the game.

i dont know why people are saying “when people played 4 they didnt like it blah blah” ofcourse theyre not gonna fucking like it, there glitchy style aint working thats why, you have to WORK for your wins now :rofl:

sorry if i sound like a knob but seriously this is stupid, i didnt pick up doa4 for another mvc, or sf3, or kof

doa will always be behind if its following in old foot steps, and it never has been, its just stupid people searching for glitches to play tekken lol

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But… it’s true.

Experience changes a lot in terms of opinion on the game. I’m not saying they’re void, I’m saying with more experience, there would be quite a difference in terms of “random” play, and “outguessing”, and other terms of such that you’re using. That’s not true at all, really. DOA4’s formula is quite different from 3.1, and cannot be compared traditionally. Pretty much, I’m saying a lot of the shit we’re arguing about is very opinion-based/personal preference, and I don’t think we’re going to get anywhere with it either. I’m just based the logic of DOA4 being a solid game from MY own experience, online and offline. I’m able to get enough consistancy to say - this game is damn solid. I’m not rubbing it in that the UK has a poor DOA scene, so does most of the US, and Canada for that matter. We’re in the same boat, all you can do is keep working on your local scene. It’s just the truth that you see a lot of things differently if you have mass experience. If you start to get consistancy, you start to see, that in it’s own regard - DOA4 is quite a solid game.

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The counter system let’s me control you also. I prevent you from using your best launcher or from going low or from throwing etc…pretty close to being an even playing field outside of me being juggled.

i thought that was the point of all fighting games…