because if that was the case, sf4, umvc3, tvc, t6, wouldn’t have sucked so bad online. Especially for umvc3, there is so much useless shit in it. I would of negated heroes and heralds mode and shadow mode from the project and just paid another programmer to implement GGPO instead
while it may be 2 different people for a big company doing command lists and the net code, you’re still missing the fact that it takes money to pay that person to do the command lists\BS modes and eventually all the mundane shit adds up to the point where they can’t pay any more money for devs to work on a given project. You’re only allotted so much time and money on projects. When some of the money gets paid towards dev members making menus, heroes and heralds mode and shadow mode, all of that extra money could of been spent for a programmer to work on GGPO, If it took 6k worth of man hours to implement those 3 things, I would of used that 6k to make sure the net code was as good as it could be rather than useless BS modes.
there is 0 way you can spin that argument, it never makes any sense.
big compaines like Capcom don’t prioritize like they should.
It is funny to me, the movelist gets all the attention, not the lack of training options or button feedback… which are arguably bigger issues
Edit: Schultz, you think the reason they didn’t put GGPO on MvC3 is because they weren’t willing to spend the extra time on it? I thought it was decided because those inscrutable producers didn’t want to even think about an outside option.
Could someone start infracting people for bringing this shit up in all but constructive manners?
Everyone acknowledges the problem, most of all the devs, so why still troll? Not enough Megaman in the game?
well yeah, the label is worth money. A good handy definition of ‘indie’ would be self-funded though, if you had to pitch to backers or your corporate overlords that’s pretty much a no-go
Except opportunity cost is a real thing and it’s naive to say otherwise.
You have limited resources (time, people, money) and you want to make the most of it. Mike was willing to sacrifice the resources it would take to make an in game movelist to implement GGPO correctly (with slider before the match start, color coded ping numbers and a recommended GGPO setting), and a good button config, shit important in the long term.
Even if it could be done in a day/night, you’re assuming there was any unused time/people.
No one is saying “find the movelist online” like you want to interpret it.
You know, it’s funny how Mike Z has stated multiple times EXACTLY the reasons as to why shit isn’t in the game, and has gone into very specific detail about it yet people somehow need to go around looking for OTHER reasons as to why it is that way. Most of the shit people are coming up with doesn’t even make sense either.
As an opinion, I personally think it should have been implemented just because the appearance of being incomplete will hurt reviews and word of mouth, which hurts sales. It seems like they didn’t think it would be a big deal, and so they let it slide to work on other priorities.
Which is fine (kind of), but Mike and plenty of other commentators have specifically said a number of times that adding that in would have hurt the quality of netplay or game balance… and that just reads as hyperbole, with a hint of ‘you don’t care about what’s actually important, do you!!!’.
And just real quick; the post directly above yours;
or your earlier post
The movelist would be a tiny fraction of the work of any of those, that line of argument doesn’t really help… in fact it specifically makes people want to argue with you, because they feel like you’re overselling and not being entirely straight.
Anyways on this subject FluffyM actually had it best:
**"It's a problem, *everyone already acknowledged its a problem including the devs*, lets get on to other things."**
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Not sure how I’m overselling truth. If you want one thing, you lose the option to do something else.
Opportunity cost isn’t hard to understand. Time made to make the movelist was time away from somewhere else.
I mean it’s kind of odd how people are bitching about how time was actually well spent on quality features instead of many features.
Play Skullgirls online and then play ANY other fighter and come back to me and say the time would’ve been better spent on a movelist. Skullgirls is hands down the best netcode on a console fighter and future patches plan to include lobbies to have more than 1 match going at a time (think multiple cabs at an arcade), spectating and replays. That’s the way it should be, all those features are USELESS if the online play is ass.
Oh and the repeating sound effect from rollback, Mike already found a way to reduce the frequency (not that it happens often anyway), and it doesn’t include adding more input delay.
xesaie has the worst posts on the forums. Every time I see him post, I ask myself why. Not to mention that this guy is willing to argue with Mike Z about how GGPO can’t work with consoles properly and sites his imaginary friend as the source. He willingly took the opinion of someone who isn’t in the field with a job or has even attempted net code implementation versus someone that has a job in the field and has experience with the implementation. and oh yea, skull girls is the best game online so there goes that argument down the drain. On all levels, that guy thinks like a fucking moron. Who the fucks argues with developers that have nothing to really gain? he wants people to know it uses GGPO as a selling point. Not lie about it and tell you its the speed of light! Games like skull girls can’t sell on hype alone. They have to sell by word of mouth and if the word of mouth is bad, it doesn’t get bought. We can bash capcom games all day, they will always sell games due to hype\fanboys
When games like umvc3 create arbitrary modes like heroes and heralds or shadow mode, that is time wasted. There are only 3 things that matter in fighting games. versus, online and training mode. Whenever those 3 things aren’t met to the same standards it is in skullgirls, which is now the standard online, then your fighting game has failed.
Things like commands lists, your shitty ass opinion on why fighters need story modes, heroes and heralds, tournament mode, shadow mode. All of these things take a back seat to the things that matter most. They are only additions and should never take away from the core elements of fighters.
If command lists are going to affect the quality of the game or the net code because its going to take dev time, don’t throw them in there right away. You work on the most important things first then everything else will fall into place.
doing menu’s according to mike Z looks very tedious. Probably 50-100+man hours to get that shit done. Heroes and Heralds looks like it took 500+man hours to get done and is that mode so important that it takes precedence over the net code? FUCK NO. Its your shitty ass logic train that prevents us from getting good games online along with your fellow scrubs. You want all this extra bullshit that doesn’t matter when the companies can’t even get the basics down. I’d rather have Capcom use that 500+man hours for H&H and use that time in the net code that obviously needed it.
shoultzula, every one of your posts in this thread is exactly the same, lol.
I kinda agree with this, but the thing is, the competitive crowd (which was the obvious demographic for this game) wouldn’t care anyway and would actually go through the trouble of getting the movesets online. even the people who bitch about the lack of them will do it because they have no other choice for now. As for those who are less competitive, it would be the art style that will make it or break it for them. So I believe holding off on the in-game movelists was a good call
How’d that even come up? It’s good that he found an easy fix.
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I’m just saying be smart. Instead of getting defensive and going on about why it’s okay it wasn’t included, say “We know about it, the devs know about it, and it’ll be fixed in the next patch”. By arguing you’re inviting argument, and if people think your reasons are bad, even if its an insignificant issue, you’re gonna be called on it, and people are going to just talk about the issue more.
If you don’t like these arguments, don’t have them.
PS: 50-100**+** hours for a movelist is laughable… and Schultz needs to get over me already, he can’t even see my name without going into some kind of insane diatribe.
Wasn’t this SFxT’s solution to the issue? That’s probably why, no idea otherwise.
Mike Z already said that most of the man hours was UI work, and testing the functions with XBL and PSN so doing things like bringing up the menu and hitting the PS button doesn’t crash the game and such. So basically the man hours spent would be making sure that the features don’t cause any issues that makes them fail certification?
You have to spam the same shit multiple times and if you’re lucky a rare pokemon appears and it teaches them to understand it.
I don’t think xesaie has seen that pokemon yet but he will sooner or later.
xesaie, you’re willing to argue with developers on whether or not GGPO can be used in fighting games on consoles. You have no degree in the field to my knowledge, you’ve never designed a game and you’ve never implemented GGPO. You’re just a dumb fuck that argues anything.
@ least when I make points, they are almost always backed up by facts. Yours are backed up by qualitative experiences that serve no merit in a logical argument.
pretty much all threads are better when you’re not a part of it spitting your garbage all over the place
When I can’t play someone next door in mvc3 cuz it can’t even handle 0.2 miles without having a huge input delay, that is what I’d call incomplete. And of course it didn’t hurt sales cuz it’s mahvel baybee!
That could be it, yeah; the certification part is something I know like nothing about. I honestly don’t think it’s important exactly why that feature was left out, all that matters is it’s not in and it’s going to be put in.
We can talk about whether it’s meaningful, or whether it’ll have impact on the success of the game, but talking about justifications for it not being in is probably not helping at all. The conversation just shifts to whether the excuses are valid
Edit:
You think the netplay issues didn’t hurt sales for UMvC3? I’m pretty sure it did, sales certainly fell off like crazy. Anyways, ‘not very good’ and ‘doesn’t work at all’ are 2 different things.
