First, for those who don’t know I live in Japan. So it’s not like I’m saying this after 2-3 days of playing, but rather 6 months. Granted, it has only been 6 months, and things can and do change. Even here in Japan, I hear people talking negatively about the game. That it just isn’t as fun as regular Super was. I’ve even heard talk of banning Yun/Yang…I personally don’t think that movement will go anywhere, but the rumblings are there.
Second, more than just “OMG Yun/Yang are OP ban them!”, I’m saying to look at Super/AE as a whole, and whichever of the two games is ultimately better is the one we should use. If there are 2 runaway S-tier characters then they will definitely play a factor in that decision. But it’s not just about them - other characters got nerfed in AE for no good reason, and of course there were some buffs as well. So, just look at the whole picture - if we take a step back and say “Wow, ultimately Super was the better game”, what reason do we have to stick with AE? I just want people to realize that this is an option we have.
“Just deal with it” is something we used to say back when we didn’t have a choice. People have been unhappy with bad game balance for a long time now. It’s not like the complaining is anything new. The Big 4 in A2, V-Akuma/V-ISM as a whole in A3, Nakoruru in CvS1, Cammy/Sagat/Blanka in CvS2, The Big 4 in MvC2, Yun/Chun in 3S…this has been going on for quite a while. Back then, we didn’t get patches, home versions were less than perfect and we had no choice but to play to the arcade standard. Now we have a choice. That is all I’m saying. With tournaments being run on console, and with the game itself featuring a “choose your version” option, if Super is ultimately the better game then that’s what we should play.
Making Yun strong on purpose was naturally a dick move, I won’t argue with that. But he’s not game breaking by any means. Hard to deal with =! impossible to deal with.
Azrael has been playing AE longer than most of you guys trying to mock him for his opinion/suggestion, which is valid.
If Super does end up being the better game, what reason is there to not use it? Some tourneys have gone back to playing ST over HDR after a year or two, but I’m sure a new or patched SF4 version will be out by that time anyway.
It’s a valid opinion, sure. If Super ends up being the better game and the community wishes to go back, why not?
But the problem is that people just need to understand that balance =! better game. Super isn’t a better game by default just because is apparently more balanced.
I read it as better balance not balanced better as the way Super was balanced is better than AE, not more balanced. I don’t know if he meant it like that though.
AE is the better game. You folks are too focused on Yun and Yang.
Super = 25 characters got buffed with useful and useless ultras, buffed attacks and basically 95% of them with nerfed normal damages; 10 additional characters that were more or less played and ignored.
AE = 35 characters got great buffs, ultras fixed and adjusted as Super was the “test” to give 25 of the old characters variety and to tweak the newer 10 characters; those of the newer characters from Super received proper buffs to help them catch up from Super. Majority of the original console 25 nerfed in defensively unfun exploits and buffed to adjust to severely bad match ups. 4 more characters thrown into the mix; 2 of which to expose mashers and the other 2 granted with high damage and high stun combos compared to the rest of the cast for people who like stuff like that.
I am sure majors will *not *go regular Super. Maybe smaller tournaments where hosts and tournament organizers cannot see the bigger picture and will likely be irrelevant in the tournament circuit.
What is the problem with defensive gameplay? Why every fighting game has to be a rush oriented fest?? Sports and tablegames are balanced, either defensive strategies or offensive strategies can work, depending on your personality. Why in a game like street fighter defensive characters must suck and offensive characters must shine??
And dont come with this great buff bullshit, Rose has got nothing in ae, all she got was a nerf to u2, that is now useless.
Rose is made up as a defensive character, how the hell can anyone play agreesivelly with Rose when she hasnt got an overhead, she has a crap crossup and absolutely no mixup options. All she got in super was a good throw, an u2 that could be used as reversal for crap damage, good meter gaining and a easy hit confirm to super for good damage. Now she lost u2 completely, it was nerfed so bad that it is useless even for attack and her meter gaining was also nerfed.
I am not even going to talk about Gen. And not about Gouken also, the only shooto without a way to connect his fireball.
Meanwhile Yun and Yang can fill their super bar spamming palm across the screen, a move that also negates fireballs.
…And that’s part of the match up, stop them from building meter, keep them out and shut them down. Don’t you get it??? That takes defensive characters out of their comfort zone. Nevermind, if you complain about something like that, you’re just a very casual player and will likely not be taken with a grain of salt anyway.
Let me ask you this, what fun is it if the SSF4Turtles can keep you out 95% out of your main character?
You won’t see any top players sitting for 90 seconds at EVO2k11 top 8 watching Yun and Yang build meter with palm if they cannot get in on their characters with dive kicks. I guarantee you.
People have strategies for dealing with Phoenix in MVC3, they will deal with blocking dive kicks properly and getting out properly in due time.
Inb4 700 damage geneijin post.
Go tell Louffy to stop playing Rose then or go back to ultra 1 if you can’t mash your Ultra 2 point blank and win.
Yang isn’t even that bad though. Yeah Yun is really easy to pick up in terms of execution, but he’s not even that scary without super meter. His moves don’t have great priority either.
I feel like the revisions made to the entire cast to make a lot of low tier characters actually viable far outweigh the slight balance discrepancy with Yun.
Azrael you keep saying “I’m just putting the option out there” but it is fairly obvious you just want AE to disappear in favor of Super. You’re not impartial enough to lead this discussion at all, just look at this:
“Consensus was* Super* was the more balanced game”
“AE is the reason that the Japanese won’t attend console meetups offline, online and overseas”
“Rumblings of the Japanese hating AE and banning Yun and Yang”
“GODSGARDEN can surpass SBO if AE didn’t exist”
“We can make the Japanese to go back to consoles by force by adapting the older version of the game because arcades are holding them back” <-- WTF
Just sad plays to public opinion using ambiguous statements.
Onto the topic of the thread…
Japanese players at GODSGARDEN 1 were not less hype due to the existence of arcade players tearing it up at a console tournament. GODSGARDEN 2 would not have been less hype if there was a Super Arcade release. GODSGARDEN in the future will have AE on console and business will continue as usual, and I am willing to bet that the hype wave for online showdowns and commentary will continue provided that GODSGARDEN organizers keep up the hard work with things like EVO collabs.
Going back to Super will actually alienate MORE players from the international scene who have mastered AE. Causing a community divide is certainly a “choice we have” but it is a very bad one.
Here’s an anecdotal statement of my own; nearly all people who I have talked to say that AE is more fun than Super due to the gameplay pace change. People are now more active when they are fighting, coming closer to the older style of certain games where both offense and defense are in an engaged battle.
If you do not like AE Azrael, you can just come out and say it and say why (like Sabin, who had both of his mains nerfed and has every right to be mad) without drawing up this massive approval of Japanese public opinion that you don’t have. Or you can let some one else lead the charge and compare the two games to decide which one is more balanced (which doesn’t guarantee anything when it comes to tournaments).
This is basically the topic here. Everyone hating on the smash community when the SRK forums and the SF4 scene is slowly turning into just that.
Seriously, WTF @ turning away from making AE at making it not tournament standard? OP, go fuck yourself.
And to make matters worse, your suggestion people to step further away from Arcades?
OP, go fuck yourself, again!
If SSF4 came out in arcades, I’m sure the Japanese would’ve torn it apart and degenerated it into “Pick insert two/three characters or lose,” just as quickly.
You can tell which version people think is the “best” or “most balanced” by their main character.
Please, you think it was on purpose? I bet you also bought the story where they were the ones finding all of MvC3’s glitches, but only bothered to patch them conveniently after Desk made videos of them.
Wow Nyoronoru, it’s like you just cherry-picked statements so that you could disagree with them. Did not expect that from you.
No. So far people are feeling that Super might have been the more balanced game, and if that turns out to be the case after we’ve had AE for awhile, why not go back to Super? That’s what I’ve been saying. It’s still a “what if”, I haven’t once said one way or the other.
AE let them fall back to their arcade standard. It doesn’t really matter if it had been AE or not - even an identical port of Super would have caused the same thing. And again you’re putting words in my mouth. I said that with an arcade version of the game, there is less interest/motivation to do console-oriented events. Which is true.
You’ll also notice I said “rumblings” of banning Yun/Yang. I also said I didn’t think it would ultimately go anywhere.
SBO 09 (regular SF4, Super wasn’t even out) was mad hype. All the qualifiers had big turnouts and lots of people went to the event itself. SBO 10 was far less hype. I went to two qualifiers and there were less people overall, and it just didn’t have the same hype and vibe that 09 did. Super was out and was the better game and that’s what people were playing. Arcade hardcore still played SF4 and they went to SBO because it was the big tournament, but for the most part eyes were on Super.
The state of the Japanese tournament scene is another topic in itself. Again, you are putting words into my mouth here, but whatever.
I don’t have an opinion on AE yet. The characters I use got minor nerfs/buffs/minor nerfs so I don’t have a real reason to complain on that end. Yun and Yang are not fun to fight against, but I’ve dealt with the likes of CvS1 Nak and A3 V-Akuma, so I know how to “deal with it”. Even with 6 months lead time in Japan, it’s still a bit too early to be making a decision on which version of the game is ultimately better.
Azrael, very interesting. Exactly which tournaments were they considering banning yun and yang from? Can you please name the names? It seems retarded that anyone but a complete scrub would say something like this, so i’m really surprised japanese organizers and players are talking like this.
At the topanga tournament, the top 4 teams had a total of 20 players. There was only one yun player and two yang players but there were 3 sagats. You mean after that tournament they wanted to ban yun and yang? This seems really ridiculous. Why weren’t they considering banning sagat because he had the best winning percentage and placement at that tournament? What did the top players feel about sagat? How about Fei, is he getting banned too?
Btw, You’re a Chun Li player right? How do you feel about AE? Any reason you might want to head back to super for tournaments?
Again, only “rumblings”. People on message boards, talking to people in arcades, etc. I haven’t heard “ban Yun/Yang” from any tournament organizers or for any particular tournament.
SF4 Sagat - Tiger Uppercut FADC F+RH, Ultra was called the “LOL Combo” in that when he hits you with it, all you can do is laugh about it. Despite Sagat’s strength I never heard anyone ever talk about banning him. As the 3S fans love to point out, SF4 characters are “incomplete” - they may lack certain things like a good reversal/defensive options or solid combos, etc. This is just a part of the SF4 engine - your characters have strengths and weaknesses, and part of winning was to utilize the strengths while covering the weaknesses.
Even SF4 Sagat had his weaknesses. He was slow, and without TU FADC his mid/close range game was just okay. His insane damage output helped to cover these weaknesses. For example, on paper Chun-Li outfights Sagat, but the advantage in the match was his simply because he really only needed to hit her 2-3 times to win. Even still, he fit within the system.
What I’m hearing and seeing for Yun/Yang is that they don’t. They’re just designed too well for the game they were put in. Where Sagat was the best within the rules of the system, the twins break the system. You have to go back to CvS1 Nakoruru to find a character who really played a different game than the rest of the cast. I’m also reminded of a SF4 loketest version of Bison, who had no recovery on anything and Psycho Crusher was completely safe on block.
I’ve played against Master-ranked Yun’s and Yang’s - while I don’t think they’re unbeatable (I’ve won a few matches), it is a different kind of match that it was against SF4 Sagat. I come from the “deal with it” era so I have been dealing with it, but I do admit that matches against these two characters just aren’t fun.
Yeah, I’m a Chun player. She got a few nerfs, but nothing that really makes me feel like she’s a lesser character than she was in Super. I personally haven’t really made up my mind on AE yet. Still too soon. I did really like Super though - felt that it was a good game all-around, and built upon the groundwork that SF4 had made. Even if the community did hold a vote some time down the line, I could end up casting my vote for AE (my other character, Dudley, got a buff or two in AE after all). So I’m still in the wait and see phase. I’m also kind of hoping that some of the Yun/Yang hype is overblown, that given time we’ll better learn how to deal with them and they won’t be runaway S-tier. I’m hopeful, but all of this is something that only time will tell.
Does giving a command grab to dive kick characters really makes them “play a different game”? That really sets them so far apart from characters like Rufus, Seth, Cammy, heck, even Makoto who’s instant air tsurugi can be compared to a dive kick? Viper is way more system breaking than the twins.
Anyway, EVO will never do this, since it’s sponsored by Capcom, and this probably extends to the rest of the tournaments. Personally I think it’s great, since for me AE is a better game overall and I’ll take the twins over vanilla Sagat any day.
Also, while you’re trying to call a neutral position to validate the discussion, it’s obvious you prefer Super. You mention you’d pick super over AE in the first post and the “why not make super the tournament standar” makes it pretty obvious.