Simple. Playing and winning as phoenix is neither fun nor satisfying for the majority of us. It feels hollow, and we don’t like playing with her.
Just look at Richard Nguyen. He was bodying everyone at WNF with his phoenix team but he dropped her.
I’m not complaining about MK. I don’t care that much. It’s just a videogame. I still think he’s too good for competitive play. IMO banning a character should only happen when a character has a large advantage over all others. It should only happen if those who make the rules think it will help the community. I think the MK ban will help the Smash community. I’m not sure what the starts are regarding Phoenix, but there’s about a 1/4 chance you will fight a MK in a high level Smash tournament. That stat came directly from Smash Boards. With the advantages he has and the high usage he gets, I agree with the ban. But just like phoenix and DHC glitch, I learned to use MK because he was still allowed in tournaments.
We’ve dealt with top tiers before in Marvel (In MvC2, you had 90% chance of running into a team with at least one of the 4 gods in a tournament). Banning of characters and glitches are simply not part of the culture. When the game that the community played for 10 years was built on top tier characters and glitches, then you realize why the same mentality was applied to MvC3.
Then don’t complain when you can’t win. I’ve never liked pheonix, but I still believe a ban is not the answer. I have a certain respect for those that do have the balls to play phoenix as everyone hates on them and are apparently less of a person because of it. If Pheonix isn’t your thing, don’t play her. I dislike playing Phoenix(and I normally lose as I suck at marvel in general), but I still have a good time and give it my best shot. I don’t go and pull out a keyboard to rant and request a ban. Not being fun isn’t a reason to ban a character because you don’t want to use it. Many people not entertained by the twilight movies, so everyone needs to go and ban them. I hate them, but I still realize that there is a market and an audience for them. The needs of the Many outweigh the needs of the few, but all I see here is a request for added convenience, which falls under the want category. If it isn’t satisfying to a casual player, why don’t competitive players all use Pheonix? For them winning is what matters(at least in most other major competitive scenes, I’m not sure about Marvel). Your argument has some strength(especially among most people), but it is more of a personal argument, albeit from a large group, than one with any true evidential backing. I certainly realize where you are coming from and understand your frustration, but nobody has provided me with any factual evidence that truly supports your claims.
Also, Phoenix can be a bit of a crapshoot. There’s alot of stuff in this game that just happens, and if it happens to Phoenix, she’s dead.
The bigger crime is the damage she’s done to the metagame. Having to deal with that PMSin bitch has warped the meta, evey team must have a very solid plan for dealing with her and it makes the character choices and team choices very limited.
Also… gimmick characters are dumb… I’m a little annoyed that Ultimate has added more gimmick punks in Frank, and Phoenix.
Just to be clear, I never said I was on the side of banning Phoenix. I just don’t like her. Anyway, I think there’s a difference between top tier and say “broken tier.” Like let’s say there is some character that was in the regular cast, just some average character like Ryu or whatever. But this character takes zero damage and 1 shot kills everyone else and 90% of people use him in tournaments. Wouldn’t you agree that a character like that should be banned? I know that’s a big exaggeration, but I’m just saying there needs to be a line drawn somewhere.
Also, I know about MSS and stuff in marvel 2 but I didn’t play it so I won’t comment on that.
The line has already been drawn, it’s called ST Akuma and Jean is nowhere near that.
Having to have a solid plan for dealing with a certain character/team is an accepted norm for fighting games. Nothing wrong with counter strategies and straight up counter picking.
Does this thread need be anymore? UMvC3 drops in about 2 weeks. Phoenix has been nerfed, the crap most people had hated about her has been changed and you can now prevent Dark Phoenix from even playing now do to the system changes (TAC meter killer) Not to mention meter is harder to bulid all around. So now it’s just a waiting game to see if she will appear more or less in tournments or online when the game hits stores. And if your gonna continue talking about banning a character at least wait till UMvC3 comes out because MvC3 probably won’t be used at tournments anymore anyways.
I agree completely. It’s not just that she’s strong, but that the strategies for dealing with her diverge almost completely from strategies for fighting other characters, so you need a plan just for her.
Frank and Wright are interesting in that they give added value to defense. In most fighting games, blocking doesn’t get you anything, other than the precious gift of not dying, where in a game like Starcraft, your strength is more dynamic, and the longer you can hold someone off, the more robust your offense becomes down the road. Hyper meter already does this to a degree, it just so happens that most of the ways of building meter are highly offensive in this game.
I’m not sure how we even define a gimmick. If we’re being honest, the only real difference between the things that are unique to them and the things that are unique to Magneto is that their things have a UI element.
Until people notice Phoenix teams are mashing side TAC to prevent losing a bar of meter at all times and XF3 still remains idiotic.
I’m wasn’t even talking about Phoenix anymore. I’m jut saying a line needs to be drawn for banning. It can’t just be a comparison to ST Akuma. It needs to be more general to apply to all fighting games. Something like having a significant advantage in all matchups and high usage in tournaments.
And there will be a new character in UMVC3 who shits on the whole roster (looking at you Strange) and then what? Are people gonna try and ban that character too? When does it end? When do we say “fuck a ban” and tell people to learn how to fight top-tier characters? Before Phoenix, people were bitching about Sentinel, even banning him in some tournaments, and that character was mediocre at best. Scrubs kept falling into his armored 18 frame crouching M cause they were pressing buttons, and getting rocked with dat easy damage. Capcom throws in a health patch, and now every scrub on the net think they can get Capcom to nerf their bad matchups for them.
They shouldn’t be talking about banning anything in Marvel.
It’s not that, it’s more along the lines of what Reruns said. Dealing with Phoenix is completely different than dealing with any other BS.
Its not so much that Phoenix does everything better than everybody else (she does), its that she not even playing the same game as everyone else. She is an alternate win condition, and in my opinion, that doesn’t really belong in a fighting game.
That said, I would not ban her, I just find her insufferable.
ST Akuma is a pretty clear line. He was clearly designed to not be played competitively and did win 9:1 over everyone else.
No other fighting game character since fits into that description, certainly no one in MvC3.
You had to deal with characters like O. Sagat in ST or Pet Shop and Iggy in JJBA totally differently from the rest of the cast in their games. The same could possibly be said as well for Storm in MvC2 (heaven forbid you use someone who can’t fly or at least catch her while she’s off screen). Yet those characters were never banned (not even softbanned, despite what the myth says).
No she isn’t, you have to kill her just like every other character in game.
Ivan Ooze.
-Tha Hindu
Should have clarified, I meant no other FG character from Capcom (no, not even CvS1 Nak).
No you can’t. A straight fight is the way you lose to a Phoenix team.
You’re discounting the fact that every “straight fight” requires character/match-up specific strategies. Phoenix is simply that taken to the extreme.
I guess the argument then is where you draw that line. When it gets to the point that simply beating on the other team will not work, then I begin to question it. You also can’t discount the fact that Pheonix isn’t working towards the same goal as you are. She isn’t trying to beat you, she’s just trying to get 5 bars, it reminds me of Arakune in BlazBlue with his curse meter, and it’s just as stupid.
I also want to reiterate that I don’t think she should be banned. I don’t even think shes good enough to be in a tier by herself, she’s just in with the other God characters. Most of my complaints are leveled at how badly designed she is.
It’s not any different from any other sort of character specific mechanics in other 2D fighting games. You might as well be saying that they shouldn’t design characters with mechanics unique to them.