Why is kara demon good?

[pherai]

Basically it is impossible unless one can teleport or super or something to beat the demon in a tenth of a second.

Less than that. We’re talking like 2 frame startup or something.

[System_1]

Wait. How do you know this? a non-kara SGS would give you jabs before start up, which would make point blank SGS very difficult to actually test.

I’m not even sure there are enough start-up frames on Akuma’s LP to get the demon out before the LP hits, even with programmable input. The shitty frame data I have says the jab will hit on frame five. A perfect demon input would take 6 frames (:lp:, nothing, :lp:, :r:, :lk:, :hp:) and hit on the seventh, thought I have not tested this at all. How do you guarantee the demon is point-blank, whilst hiding the jab inputs? Wakeup? Whiffed jump?

[ShinAkuma204]

The most widely used and one of the hardest to escape demon setups is the dashing demon. You dash into the opponent while inputting the demon commands so that when the dash ends you come out with a demon.

Often results in a point blank demon.

[media=youtube]ECC8mfvCZ6g[/media]

[media=youtube]2Mp6w8bs2lY[/media]

There’s also the empty demon flip demon - [media=youtube]riJLP93cpZw[/media]

[ESN]

Wait. How do you know this? a non-kara SGS would give you jabs before start up, which would make point blank SGS very difficult to actually test.

I’m not even sure there are enough start-up frames on Akuma’s LP to get the demon out before the LP hits, even with programmable input. The shitty frame data I have says the jab will hit on frame five. A perfect demon input would take 6 frames (:lp:, nothing, :lp:, :r:, :lk:, :hp:) and hit on the seventh, thought I have not tested this at all. How do you guarantee the demon is point-blank, whilst hiding the jab inputs? Wakeup? Whiffed jump?

One way to sidestep this is to vertically jump, push MP, HP, MK orHK and buffer both LP in this. Back on the ground, you just have to finish demon motion with forward LK HP.

[Jida]

I’m not convinced that regular SGS is inescapable at point blank. Are we talking, literally impossible, or just impossible with limited human reflexes?

Both, I think. Too many startup frames in a jump. Too few frames in demon.

One way to sidestep this is to vertically jump, push MP, HP, MK orHK and buffer both LP in this. Back on the ground, you just have to finish demon motion with forward LK HP.

QFT. There are several ways to do non-kara, point blank demons (even without dashing). Let’s not forget that demons can be activated with a d/f lk, hp and not just f. You can use this, and good timing to walk forward and then activate demons.

[ESN]

Lol, 2nd vid even Urien was doing a low short. That’s why he got caught. Kara demon vids are like World’s scariest police chases, they never show the ones that get away :lol:. It’s a nice setup, its jus gimmicky and random. You can definitely jump straight up. Tough for me to record it since I’m the only one in a decent radius who can do a kara demon but as soon as I can find someone with some decent reflexes to jump when the screen FLASHES and gives it away I’ll post it.

You can try it easily on PS2/Xbox:

• training mode with human dummy
• do dash demon (you just have to be point blank at the end) against human static dummy…
• as soon as you see the flash, press start to pause the game…
• take other controller in hand and push “up” direction…
• press start on first controller to unpause the game…
• see the dummy eat demon (:bgrin:)

[el_diablo]

there’s actually a debate on that? after years of people doing true kara that landed because opponents didn’t do shit before the flash?

wow. just WOW.

[pherai]

Lol, 2nd vid even Urien was doing a low short. That’s why he got caught. Kara demon vids are like World’s scariest police chases, they never show the ones that get away :lol:. It’s a nice setup, its jus gimmicky and random. You can definitely jump straight up. Tough for me to record it since I’m the only one in a decent radius who can do a kara demon but as soon as I can find someone with some decent reflexes to jump when the screen FLASHES and gives it away I’ll post it.

Interesting, you KNOW it can be jumped out of on reaction, but you can’t record it.

I’d love to know why the Yun in this video just doesn’t jump out in the very beginning

[media=youtube]tVkKoLnEDCY[/media]

Is there a phantom low short in there too?

[System_1]

Seeing how there’s actually a question doubting the kara demon, is it in fact escapable? and can you prove it.:wonder:

[Therapist]

Kara demon at point blank is like Hugo’s gigas breaker. After the super flash, there’s nothing more you can do if the demon was done properly. You have to jump before the super flash.

[Ryad]

seriously… I thought this was already common knowledge

[pherai]

Seeing how there’s actually a question doubting the kara demon, is it in fact escapable? and can you prove it.:wonder:

Look at the frame data: http://ensabahnur.free.fr/Baston/index.php?page=gameChars&gameNum=20&gameName=Street%20Fighter%20III%20Third%20Strike

Startup of RD: 1 frame

Startup of anyones jump: At least 4 frames

[drobizh]

chun, makoto, ryu, yang, ken, sean, ibuki, elena, dudley, akuma and gill have 3 jump startup frames:arazz:

just to be an asshole:lovin:

[pherai]

Oh haha, was looking at SJ. Either way, my point still stands!

[Henaki]

is the startup of demon 1 frame or 0 frames. 0 frames meaning, once super flash happens, it executes, 1 frame meaning, you get 1 frame to die regardless of the super flash (unless you reversal a move thats invulnerable to throws).

its actually a pretty big difference, but theres only like 3 moves in the game that are invulnerable to throws on 1f.

[ESN]

is the startup of demon 1 frame or 0 frames. 0 frames meaning, once super flash happens, it executes, 1 frame meaning, you get 1 frame to die regardless of the super flash (unless you reversal a move thats invulnerable to throws).

its actually a pretty big difference, but theres only like 3 moves in the game that are invulnerable to throws on 1f.

1 frame, demon will catch on 2nd frame.
To use this frame to your advantage, you have to buffer your move before flash and activate it (by pushing P or K) at the exact startup frame of the demon.

What are the 3 moves you mention? I think about Gouki demon flip and Urien headbutt but i don’t see the third…Maybe Alex headstomp?

[Henaki]

1 frame, demon will catch on 2nd frame.
To use this frame to your advantage, you have to buffer your move during flash and activate it (by pushing P or K) at the exact startup frame of the demon.

What are the 3 moves you mention? I think about Gouki demon flip and Urien headbutt but i don’t see the third…Maybe Alex headstomp?

oro chicken kick, necro leap strike, i forgot demon flip does that too but you’re probably better off teleporting.

[HarmoNaz]

Wait - so you’re saying even after the demon activates right next to you - you can use a move like demon flip to get out???

That is seriously wrong. The entire motion of the move, INCLUDING the punch or kick have to be done before the flash (or exactly when the flash starts).

If you manage to do something to Akuma AFTER the flash - then the demon was NOT a point blank demon.

The best way to test this out is to use mame and try it with Akuma’s f+mp. Demon cannot grab that move. So one person does a point blank demon, then the second player mashes f+mp AFTER the flash to escape.

If that does work, then I obviously have a lot more to learn about 3s…

[drobizh]

it will not escape, nothing will if it was inputed after the flash. that’s if the demon was point blank. i have tried the f+mp method. and makotos s.hk. i tried it with the rapid fire on the hori2. it’s the same thing with the gigas

edit: if i’m wrong i appologize

[ESN]

Wait - so you’re saying even after the demon activates right next to you - you can use a move like demon flip to get out???

That is seriously wrong. The entire motion of the move, INCLUDING the punch or kick have to be done before the flash (or exactly when the flash starts).

If you manage to do something to Akuma AFTER the flash - then the demon was NOT a point blank demon.

The best way to test this out is to use mame and try it with Akuma’s f+mp. Demon cannot grab that move. So one person does a point blank demon, then the second player mashes f+mp AFTER the flash to escape.

If that does work, then I obviously have a lot more to learn about 3s…

I doubt it’s verifiable without programming (with one frame precision) or putting down game speed to half or more.
I’ll test this on mame tonight…