Why doesn't CVS2 have lasting power?

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
122

It’s a gross oversimplification (and misunderstanding) to say that only the third character counts in CvS2.

To say that is to say that Vega doesn’t matter as a character… or Sakura. Obviously, this is completely false.

A lot of players today pay very little attention to the overall progress of a match and its components, and only look at the end point (another side effect of 3S-itis, IMO… since 3S has very little flow from point to point compared to other SF’s), so to them, CvS looks unnecessarily long.

I can understand that; I disagree and am disappointed that people can’t appreciate what CvS brings, but I understand it.

123

I didn’t say that only the third character matters, but generally, the user and anchor are much more important to the final outcome of the match than the battery. Also, Vega and Sakura are top tier characters too(An argument could be made that Vega is only high mid, but due to his success in tournaments all over the world, I think it’s safe to say he’s top too), so again the whole “character variety” thing is basically an illusion.

As far as understanding of CvS2, I can only speak for myself, but I definitely do have an understanding game.

To Krimson, Guile Vega and Honda are all top characters! CvS2 is no more “balanced” than any other currently played capcom game. There is still a top tier (and groove) that dominates the game on the highest level. There are over 40 characters in cvs2, and the top tier is larger, meaning there are more(around 8/40+) characters that dominate the cast as a whole, it doesn’t mean the lesser characters stand any more of a chance.

124

lol gotta love Gunter and his ghetto CCs

125

Yes, some batteries are a bitch to kill if you don’t off them first round. To cover generalizations against your game with generalizations of other ones is getting old.

I like the game, you gotta take it for what it is

126

biased opinions rule

127

I’m not gonna get into a whole thing about 3S, but I don’t think it’s an incorrect assesment to say that each critical point in 3S has less of a direct effect on the rest of the match, as opposed to Marvel, ST, or CvS2.

As for variety being an “illusion”, you can say that CvS’s end game is monotonous from a character variety standpoint, but the end-game isn’t the entire game.

Also, I made the point that Vega/Sak clearly matter to counter the argument that first characters don’t matter. I know they’re top tier, and that status alone destroys the argument that first characters don’t matter. It then extends out to anyone that would go first, from Vega to Iori to Dhalsim to Kyo to Gief. It all matters in team structure

Sure, it may end with Sagat/Bison/Blanka/Cammy, but to dismiss the build-up is missing the point. That’s like saying pawns don’t matter in chess.

128

Bias is fine as long as it’s based on appropriate experience. Everyone’s opinion on everything is biased…

129

Heh, I was just going to say, aren’t opinions biased by definition?

130

“Do a RUNNING FIREBALL, dude.”

I’ll try to dig up the video. :rofl:

EDIT: Oh, I’m six pages late.

131

See I have to disagree with u there, I cant speak for others but I pay a lot of attention to the progress of the match.

To me the game flows a lot better than CvS2 does. IMO.

I can say I understand 3s and you guys dont this and that, but its just a matter of opinions now isnt it…

132

What point? Isn’t the point of all competitive games to ultimately…win the game? Also stop comparing any CvS2 to chess please lol.

133

Obviously, I’m not saying CvS2 = chess, just making an analogy with the relative importance of characters to that of pieces.

EDIT- If the chess analogy is no good, then think of lead-off hitters in baseball. Yeah, they don’t usually hit home runs (sometimes they do… OCV!), but their walks and base hits put the team in position to score. Sure, Bonds hits the home run that scores the runs, but the lead batters are important too.

135

CvS2 is a horrible game when played to win. It’s maybe the most defensive SF game ever, with so many ways of rewarding turtling and defensive play. All three characters matter, but by and large the first 2/3 of the match is just preamble to see which anchor character is going to have a lead in the end.

136

^ shouldn’t any decent fight be down to the last character? Since when is winnging two rounds in a row exciteing? the best matches are always those down to the wire. Would daigo’s moment have been so exciting if it happened in the first round?

i honestly believe that MVC2 is a lot less balanced than CVS 2. I mean you can use so many other characters in this game effectively, and there are at least four viable grooves. (blanka, sagat, cammy, sakura, hinda, bison, rock, morgan, nakaruru, haomaru, king, chun li, joe, kyo, ken) i’ve seen so many of these characters do incredible things. I honestly think that some of these characters are just in hybernation.

137

If you knew anything about MvC2, you would know that basically each team is like a different character. Sure there are like 5 characters that are seen in regular high level play (including assists), but each team actually plays like a different “character”. MSP, MSS, Matrix, Santhrax, SSCable, Scrub etc all play very very differently even they are composed of mainly the same characters.

138

The answer is simple: the Ratio System is flawed and takes away excitement.

Quite simply put, there is nothing at stake until the last character. The nice thing about other games is that rounds matter. So when someone makes a comeback in Round 1, it matters. If you win by a pixel, it matters. In CvS2, winning by a pixel means nothing until the last character. If I used Ratio 1 Maki and I barely defeated your Ratio 1 Sagat, it doesn’t matter. Most likely, your next character will come in and kill Maki right away.

And thanks to the whole Ratio 1 vs. Ratio 2 thing, even if my Maki decides to destroy your second character on a tiny pixel, your last Ratio 2 character hs the easy chance of killing Maki AND my other Ratio 1 character with enough life left to take on my Ratio 2 character.

CvS2 is a great game in every other respect. It’s very technical, there’s lots of high end play, etc. etc. I’m not trying to say the game is bad. But because of the Ratio system, no one ever feels like anything is at stake until the final characters. And it sucks excitement away from the game. Honestly, the way CvS2 should have worked is no Ratios, 3 characters every time, and the first characters fight and whoever wins wins Round 1. Then the next 2 characters fight and whomever wins wins Round 2. If the same player wins both, game over. If they both win one, go to third character and play to see who wins there.

What happens NOW is that Rounds matter. And because Rounds matter now, learning match ups matter more. If I make Maki go first and you chose Sagat first, now it REALLY matters to know how to use Maki to beat Sagat. Right now, I can do 60% damage and feel like she did a “good enough of a job.” There’s no excitement in that. Also, character order is a trickier game now. “He has two characters that counter my Maki… hopefully I can pick the order in such a way so that he picked the non-counter character in the same Round I picked Maki.” Even just describing this makes it feel like match ups matter a lot more, don’t you agree? When Rounds matter, when match ups matter, that creates tension. And then all of the crazy technical shit that exists in the game have more impact.

Right now, CvS2 is a very good game. Just watch the CvS2 Evo West videos on my YouTube page and you can see how exciting the game can truly be (even without the rowdy crowd). But because of the way the game is designed, it jsut doesn’t have the lasting power and doesn’t have the ability to keep non-committed players interested in it. It can’t draw casual players in because it’s really hard to feel the tension and excitement of CvS2 compared to other games.

139

I agree that rounds don’t matter in the same sense, but in another sense, they really do matter. That’s why so many lazy fucks will only pick top tiers.

With my team, I already have to work my order around to avoid certain problem matches that come up (Iori v. Bison/Blanka, Hibiki v. Cammy/Vega), but I still have to know those match-ups really well because the fights matter. Actually winning the individual rounds doesn’t matter, but like laugh said, each second of every round matters.

In CvS2, in every round, I have to kill my opponent as quickly as possible, while taking as little damage as possible because it all carries over, and it all impacts the match.

In other SF games, it doesn’t matter how you win, so there’s a specific pressure involved in a CvS2 match that isn’t in any other game. Sure, that pressure to win every round isn’t there, but it’s replaced by something else. It doesn’t translate to people that don’t understand the game, since it’s not as explicit as winning a round, but it’s there.

140

Every fighting game when it’s played to win is horrible and utterly boring.

Run-away Storm, c.MK whoring Chun-Li, c.MP abusing Rose, xx / Duolon / Damon, Kula / Gato / Oswald, Zato (3 unblockables for lulz) -1, list goes on.

;p

141

No not really. Some do though.

142

lol ok guy

All fighting games reach that point.