Ha. Capcom hcbx2 motions can be peformed with shortcuts too. Not only that, Capcom has negative edge, which kof games do not.
How you goin say one is easier to execute than the other?
Yeah and 2 in ones weren’t intended either.
If you really think it’ll make it like DOA or MK:DA then I think you’re dead wrong. Am I saying cater completely to them? No, but still why do we require complicated controls? It’s unneccesary, adds nothing, and it’s just a work around to balance out moves. It’s not a slippery slope, there will ALWAYS be games that cater to casual gamers but what if it was a game that gave us what we want while fixing this?
And DOA has broken counters, and MK: DA has side step infinites doesn’t it? It doesn’t really have much to do with move simplicity since tekken has alot of moves that are simply one direction + a button and we consider T5 to be worthy of being called a competitive game.
Huh, I must have missed that SK post you quoted. Anyway, yeah, that’s complete bullshit. The reason people don’t like MKD and DOA is because of a lack of strategic depth, yeah, but to say that they’re like that because of the removal of complex motions is fucking :rolleyes:-worthy. It sounds like you’re saying fighting games are doomed to suck without complex commands. If most of the fighting game experience came from inputting commands, they’d be boring as fuck.
But what is what you consider complicated? What would be complicated for other people? And what is a suitable, simpler replacement for said complex motion that’s still acceptable for the character? This would probably go back into the “sense of accomplishment” argument. Or better yet, we get the Least Common Denominator answer, and we all know how the community takes that. I hear people complaining about easy-mode grapplers all the time in KOF games.
DOA’s counter problem is stemmed by simplistic commands too, not just the engine. Mk:D, well, I apologize for using that, since there’s so many things wrong with it.
As for Tekken, there are all those moves that are done so simply, but what about the other 60-something% of moves that range from slightly to greatly more complex? There’s still risk/reward in many of those simple moves.
I suppose a good test of this is to take an existing game, and make everyone’s moves the same simplistic motion, and see how things would shape up.
SPD with FB motion plz
Edit: Hah, TMNT:TF, good example there
Move execution separates the men from the boys, IMO. How would the Cable players dwindle if MvC2 super were 2xQCF?
actualli for um 2d fighters. You need qcf. I mean we already have normals that’s like diagonal towards punch, and mp + mk. And if we have qcf for a game like 3rd strike we already have qcf to 2 buttons. Then wat about for supers? they’re stuck to qcf x2. I mean they have not much of a choice. FBFBFBFBU + HP just doesn’t work.
Of course one would have to balance out moves in other ways, all I know is that if I can’t teach people how to even do the moves before they get bored and want to play something else then they are TOO complicated IMO
If you remove parries from SF3 the tier listings will change dramatically. You can’t expect it to go without a hitch when changing all the commands for a move when they were designed with harder commands in mind.
Regardless, it wouldn’t suprise me if a game could go rather well with simplified commands but with a few tweekings here and there.
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You seem to think my argument is simply down to the fact that I hate learning hard execution points in games personally, which is not the case. I already said I do learn them, because I love the games, so you can stop talking down to me like I’m some fucking scrub. As I said, I’m simply concerned that it turns new players off. You say that they need to accept that it’s going to take effort to become good, and I agree. But it’s still a HELL of an effort to become good even without having to learn difficult executions, so why make it necessary to expend so much effort on something so fucking menial when you could be learning the stuff that actually makes 2D FUN?
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I think everyone here must stop and think this over a bit more. Are we assuming too much that new players do not have the sense to know that they are NOT going to be able to perform everything they see irl/combo vids/tournaments?
I can give you an example. Suppose that you are going to learn TKD. You go to a local school. Over there, you see someone able to jump 2m up in the air, turn and kick a piece of wood tied on the top of a pole.
If the new guy believes for one moment that he is going to be able to do that with a few tries then I am speechless.
Another thing is that the execution of moves/combos during competitive play also contributes to fun and entertaining play. Is a sweep more satisfying or is some diffcult combo better to punish a mistake?
You told me about learning stuff that makes 2D fighting fun. I can tell you this. Inflicting maximum damage on one small mistake = fun. Predicting/anticipating moves of opponents and corresponding with apporpriate measures = fun. Able to win a match when you have 1 pixel of life and your opponent with about 50% life makes a mistake = wow more fun.
You also neglected something. There is a difference between BnB combos and exhibition combos.
E.g.
Iori’s stand C to Aoi Hana or Hcb kick is a BnB combo.
Iori’s stand C, BC (run), C, (Dp C SC Hcb b)*2, Dp C to SDM or HSDM is an exhibition combo.
If a new player tells me I am swearing off KOF cos I can’t do Iori’s BC combo then I am speechless again.
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Bullshit analogy. A plane has complex controls because they are necessary, and I’m sure they’re designed to be as intuitive and easy to learn as possible. That is certainly not the case for many things in 2D fighters.
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The plane and pilot analogy is apt. What makes you say that the controls are intuitive and easy? Even if they are so, you would not dispute that the pilot still requires time at flight school?
Let’s see. The landing, the altitude, the radar, the coms, the pressure meter and other stuff. Oh yes the 300-400 odd passengers whose lifes are in the pilot’s hands. Regardless of how intuitive and easy, it is pretty stressed to be flying a plane, eh?
How about the FGs?
The mind games, the zoning, the pressuring, the turtling and the comboing. Oh yes, the life bar. You want to be the last one standing, right? Pretty stressed to be playing a game, eh?
Let’s play monopoly then!
Making the controls idiot proof is just the same as those whining about turtles, cheap players, scrubs who whore high priority moves, etc…
The player is supposed to adjust to the game. If we have to adjust a game just to satisfy every half baked player rant and whine, perhaps the rims of a basketball court should stand at only 1m high since it is unfair to be so high and the height makes the new players unable to slam dunk.
HARD IS GOOD! because that means not every dumbass can do it. King of fighters 94 and 95 had some damn difficult powers for me to perform maybe because I was just 12 years old at the time. 2002 hidden dms brought back those motions again and I think that’s good.
Yeah but you have to realize that if they can’t do a basic move how can they possibly do a great “combo video combo”? Doing a hadouken is more akin to throwing a punch…in otherwords should be something basic. More complicated stuff can come later but it won’t if they can’t even get past the basics. Also there’s the fact that it’s unneccesary unlike in tkd where if you can’t throw a punch, you simply can’t throw a punch, and will have to practice until you can throw a punch. If you were a TKD teacher that wanted to attract more people to come to your class for example, and you could make a easier way to throw a punch and attract more people to come to your class then why wouldn’t you?
The designers of the game can decide how hard it should be so why make it unneccesarily hard? Especially when they should be looking to attract new people.
At which point I ask, where are the majority of complicated motions at?
Although I’ve seen some scrubs play 3S here that pick Remy(for some godforsaken reason), then mash out FB motions like it’ll do something…
I’m not talking about people who you consider “Scrubs”. I’m talking about people who can’t even do qcf motions. People who might have never really played SF at all.
Impossible! You speak lies, sir!
Grapplers are actually one of the reasons that prevent me from taking KOF seriously. :tdown:
This coming from a person who has been playing KOF casually for years. But it’s just not worth it to struggle against KOF’s wacky system and pretend it’s a good competitive game.
People complain that the reversal system in DOA creates too much guessing game. Play against grapplers in KOF, it’s 10 times worse.
… If qcf and hcf are too diffcult, they can go play 3D FGs instead?
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Grapplers are actually one of the reasons that prevent me from taking KOF seriously.
This coming from a person who has been playing KOF casually for years. But it’s just not worth it to struggle against KOF’s wacky system and pretend it’s a good competitive game.
People complain that the reversal system in DOA creates too much guessing game. Play against grapplers in KOF, it’s 10 times worse.
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People like that in SRK prevents me from taking seriously KOF gameplay-related posts here.
you’re just not used to kof. And, are you playing 2k3? if you are I feel for you. That game is broken when it’s concerning grapplers. 2k2 is a lot betta competitively as you can’t grapple ppl on instant wakeup. Street fighter’s rule is usually stay on the ground and be patient. Street fighter is a patient game. Kof’s rule is master the air and know exactly where to distance yourself. Kof is usually a pressure and comparatively fast paced game.
if it’s not a competitive game then why are there so many ppl playing it over street fighter and other fighting games in places like Hong Kong? oh wellz if it’s not your cup of tea it’s not your cup of tea. For me… ggxx over any other fighter any day. :tup:
Who is SNKP? SNK of Pakistan?
This is news to me.
playmore -.- snk playmore
Like always those capcom newbies
if you play kof the street fighter way your ass is gonna be own by Grapplers. Kof is not street fighter or those 3d fighters. If you can’t tell the diference then you’re gonna suck in kof forever.
Personally, if I could make it so that all you had to do to perform any move was think about it, I would totally do it. Instead of having to do some crazy pretzel motion or button sequence or even qcf+punch, all you’d have to do would be think “Raging Demon” or “fireball”. I mean, I don’t play fighting games for a hand workout, I play them because the strategies are so interesting. I think the fact that some people can quickly do a Demon and others can’t is just some bs artificial separation between players. I want a strategic fight, not a contest over whose wrists are the most flexible.
But since that’s probably impossible, I’m for making every motion as easy and accessible as possible. If a super does 90% damage, the fact that it takes 15 button inputs doesn’t make it any more balanced. It actually makes it MORE retarded. If that super were available to anyone by just pressing a “super” button, fine, everyone can use it, so that’s “balanced”. If you make it so hard that only some players can use it, you give those players an advantage. Making it easy to perform wouldn’t be the gamebreaking part of the super, it would be the fact that it would do 90%.