Since when have fireball supers had complicated motions? Usually the fucked up motions go to anti-air supers. And if they don’t have a complex motion(in a system where the motions aren’t standardised), then they have horribly limited uses. The pretzel belongs to the BEST AA super in fighting game history. Which is funny, because he has a million other ways to get you to not jump at him anyway. Rising Storm is just the icing on the cake. Geese is a very technical character.
Hell, the whole complex motion thing goes back to balance and tiers. Geese has been undoubtably top tier in the games where the Rising Storm has been easy to perform in, and pretty high if you took the time to learn him in others. If you want the easy way out, pick the easy, qcfx2 chars. Some chars are built with longevity in mind. There’s guys you’ll choose that will take weeks to learn how to fully use. Then there’s chars whose movesets are like 1/3rd the size of them, usually built with ease of use in mind.
to your first question, i was just jokin’ dude. Take no offense. ^-^ More competition does not mean it takes more skill to win. There can be a trillion shitty players and just a handful good players. Having a trillion shitty players in a competition doesn’t mean a good player needs more skill to beat each and everyone of them.
Your second point. I don’t see how this contribute to the debate as no one had anything against being easy (i think, at least i don’t). However, timing is about execution. in the same way super moves are also about execution. Both requires practice, and both are not realli noob friendly as it is not SIMPLE TO DO. In your own words, why should noobs have to learn all the combos to get damage? Why can’t they have an auto combo thing, where if they parried your move(or created an opening), and then can use their desired combo? ^-^ Becoz learning the combos and chains are quite satisfying. It takes a relative amount of skill. In the same way, being able to execute complex special moves is also satisfying, and hey even betta if you can do it inside a combo.
actualli, if you want me to sign post, the point is special moves, and even combos are there to make the gameplay more satisfying to the player. Both does alienate noobies. Both requires practice, and if they give you big rewards it should be complex. (just like combos, and yes magneto’s magnetic tempest super into relaunch combo, into infinity takes time to learn.) However, both contributes to the satisfying gameplay.
I much rather play someone in a game where the controls are almost moot, instead of thinking I wanna do A, B, and then C, I’d just do it.
Of course after a lot of play and learning a character anyone can do it, but why cut out new gamers and not just allow them to jump in at the strategy part?
I really don’t see how simplying the motions would hurt the game, and it would also allow people who don’t play as seriously to be better competition, which is good in my book.
If the supers have to be toned down to make the simplified motions justified so be it. Listen I already learned most of this ish (even though I must admit I still can’t do the pretzel but maybe it’s easier to do on stick) I like to play zangief and I understand that sometimes hard motions are just a way to balance out moves, but at the same time what good is longevity if such a small percentage of people playing fighting games are the only ones that play long enough to enjoy it? What happens when we die or like many of us have done before “grow out of it”. If SNK doesn’t want to drastically change a existing series that’s fine, but I still think that if this whole complicated motion thing is a issue to newbies then it should get the axe. When SF2 was hot shit you put in the time because it was the best, but now fighting game graphics are usually considered to be outdated overall, and although simplified controls won’t usher in a golden era of fighting games I think it could still help.
Okay, let’s give everyone simplified motions to even the playing field, and skip straight to the strategy.
Wow, you get MK:D. Or even DoA, if you’re lucky and added tits beforehand. You’re not going to get what WE want out of a game if you primarily cater for them.
And remember, before you try to use SSBM, Nintendo wasn’t aiming for a (pseudo-)fighting game for a specific niche.
On your first point. It’ll just make the game boring. Period. you might as well have two buttons in street fighter. An over head (if connects goes into automatic super), a low kick (if connect goes into automatic super, or most damaging combo). Press both = throw. The game is then pure strategy. If that’s a type of game i wanted i might as well play smash bros, or in fact i’ll play asian drinking games, or card games. For those who like marvel, being able to do a lk assit, lk, launch into infinity combo, is a great experience. If the combo was automatically done for you, it would be extemely stupid, boring and pointless.
now onto what higher jin said. Yes, in a marketing perspective of course. Simplicity over rules. It creates competition. But by making controls moot it kills the experience. I mean to for a real life example, GGX1.5 HAD an automatic combo system. But everyone here soon decided to go… “i want to be cool and get more out of this game” and decided to go the hard way (despite still losing to me, but that’s also beside the point ^o^). And now to answer the true question of the thread…
As jin said, special moves if executed properly rewards the player, the harder it is to connect the more damage usually. If the game is a sequel, it must follow its predeccors. Thus samurai showdown had easy supers, but kof does not. MvC has easy supers but SF3 does not. The fan base is important, it is much betta to alienate the noobs than the fan base. Plus the US is a littl’ gaming country compared to asian countries. IN hk, everyone learns the qcf. Everyone(some awesome gaming chics also). And once learned, they pick kof and gg over all other fighters. So plz put SNKP into perspective.
And fighters will survive. Im sure the bandwidth will get betta in online play, so we can play lagless versions and all will be AWESOME.
You are basically telling me that, I don’t want to expend effort in doing something as integral as comboing. I don’t want to learn this. I don’t want to learn that. I just want to plow straight into the competition. I want to experience and execute (quoting you) “the mind games, learning what’s best to do in every given situation, studying your losses, learning what you did wrong and how to do better in future, and using each improvement you make to your overall game in order to win more in future.”
A good player will not be daunted by excruciating, hand twisting motions while executing combos or supers.
Personally, if the character(s) I use have hard motions for moves or combos BUT with the rewards are that it is effective/high priority/damaging, etc. I am going to learn it. I am going to practice it. Whining about how the motions suck is not going to win me any matches. It is not going to help either if I meet someone who can do it and whack me silly.
If that move/combo is that good, people will somehow make themselves be able to do it. No ifs no buts.
The movelist of near 95% of the KOF cast are the generic qcf, hcb motions. So for a few token moves that demand strict execution, potential players are going to be put off by them? Wow.
I don’t care about what potentially good players they could be. To me, you like this KOF or FG and you want to learn how to play. If you have this mentality, then accept that it is going to take effort to be at least able to play the game competently. You jolly well spend some time on practice mode before trying to disgrace yourself in v.s.
If you are really that bothered with diffcult to perform moves and combos, then go play scissors, paper, stone. It is also full of mind games. Or are the gestures too hard to perform too?
Edit: I got this feeling all of a sudden. This is like flying a plane. A pilot, someone who expended considerable time and effort in learning in flight school gets my respect.
Some guy who whines that the controls are too complicated, complex, hard to perform but he wants to go straight into flying a plane. Go play with a remote control plane.
If there is a trillion players I think more than a handful of good players.
Satisfying that you can pull a complex special move? I dont think so. But it is cool to learn, but isn’t better to skip learning how to do a move and just learn how to combo into it.
As far as the whole balance thing, well most these things that supposedly balance it out ussually make these moves useless.
Your first point… do you even get what im sayin’? Take this example. You can have only 10 good players. THus the competition in country A is 10. You can have 10 good players and 20 shit playeres in country b. The competition in country B is 30. On your theory you state that the more competition the more skill it takes to win. You are wrong. If you can do well in country A, your skill level, without improving, can lead to the same rewards in country b. It does not take more skill.
Your second point. You have no ground to say if it is satisfying or not to pull out a complex special move. But on the basis that special moves is about execution, where combo is also, then good execution is very rewarding. Being able to dash in suddenly and then pull off hcbx2+pp (using clark) is bloody awesome. Similarly being able to AHVBx3 (cable in mvc2) is also quite rewarding (esp the first time you are able to pull it off).
your third point? i dunno wot you’re trying to say. Plz elaborate.
By the way if you want to compare satisfaction between combos and just plain execution of moves. Combos are better. However, if you take away the execution of special moves. Then it’s boring. In MvC2 it is a lot more fun needing to input those air dashes, and doin’ the qcf motion supers in an air combo, than if i just had to press 4 buttons one after the other to create the same effect.
You’re right, I’m actually talking mroe about excessively difficult execution points in general now, rather than just the KOF example. Now that I think about it though, it’s difficult to say whether many of these are even supposed to be in games in the first place (say, Yun’s jump cancelled s.mk xx Genei-Jin, certain infs in MvC2 etc.)
You seem to think my argument is simply down to the fact that I hate learning hard execution points in games personally, which is not the case. I already said I do learn them, because I love the games, so you can stop talking down to me like I’m some fucking scrub. As I said, I’m simply concerned that it turns new players off. You say that they need to accept that it’s going to take effort to become good, and I agree. But it’s still a HELL of an effort to become good even without having to learn difficult executions, so why make it necessary to expend so much effort on something so fucking menial when you could be learning the stuff that actually makes 2D FUN?
No, but a new player might be.
Hardcore players will, yeah. Then potential new players see them doing that shit, realize how hard it is to do, and say “Well, I like the games, but I’m not willing to put all my time into practicing this just so I can get to the fun. Fuck it”
Haha, I don’t think you realize how hard some people find those motions. Even so, as I said above, I’m talking more about difficult execution points in games general now. Even so, why not just have them all be QCFx2s?
This just demonstrates what I said about the uncompromising mentality of 2D fighter players. Can’t you see that there’s a middle ground between excessively difficult execution requirements and no execution requirements at all? Does learning this shit actually mean so much to you that you’d rather see it continue in future games, even if it turns off new players from coming into the scene? Frankly, that’s pathetic.
Bullshit analogy. A plane has complex controls because they are necessary, and I’m sure they’re designed to be as intuitive and easy to learn as possible. That is certainly not the case for many things in 2D fighters.
eh, i dun think you need l33t execution skills to compete in a decent level. I mean hard to execute stuff usually rewards greatly, but you’re not realli handicapped if you dun know it. If you just want to be an intermediate player you dun even need it, and usually when it comes to high level play, you have barely any chance of using it (dizzy’s full tension super?). Hard to execute stuff are usually just there to look good, and make the person who connected it, feel good.
*note: when i say hard to execute im talking about neowave/2k2 DMs. Not qcfx2 or qcf motions. If you can’t do that, sorry, just go home and practice.
Agreed, there is a big difference between simplifying some motions and reducing the game to rock paper scissors. (Which all the 2D fighters break down to anyway.)
I fail to see the harm of making most super combinations QCFx2. Hardcore players could pull it off, and newbs could as well, and in all it’d take less time for new gamers to get into the games. (Half the reason 2D games are where they are is because they don’t tend to garner large groups of new players. So while I’m not saying make a game for them, make a game that they can get into casually.)
It’s what made me like games like SC2, while higher level players will still hand you your head through your ass, you could walk up, pick a character and really play as if you knew them previously. Surely you wouldn’t know every little thing, but when I had a lot of friends who weren’t hardcore fighting game fans, and we all sat down and played SC2 the fights were a looot better than anything else.
So I’m not saying make the game take too buttons, and assertions to that end don’t really further discussion, all I’m saying is there is no real reason to shoo casual gamers (or even slow down some hardcore players) with harder combinations.
play 98 over 02, no complex motions in that game. Hardest is double half circle. KOF03 sorta started to return to more normal commands, look at the changes to Dynamite Swing and Psychic 10. The only weird motion was a raging demon for Yamazaki’s SDM, and the 03 Team’s LDMs, which were all buttontaps- not ridiculously hard. KOF01-02 was Eolith’s fault, and hence why they’re the two crappiest games in the series.
Also, a KOF hcb2 is easier to execute then a Capcom hcb2 due to shortcuts…
…KoF '02 couldn’t be further from crappy, Eolith or not ('01 being crappy not as a result of gameplay, but because of a nauseating overall presentation and a nonsensical plot in a KoF where plot was a factor).