hardest super to perform and land on an opponent has got to be Vice’s 2k2 hsdm haha
Isn’t Beni’s HSDM a ripoff of Ourorobos? And Angel’s HSDM is definitely the hardest…I never bothered learning that crap.
Actually, it’s very easy (it’s an anti-air counter). Pressing BCD during the command for the SDM works as a shortcut for the HSDM as well. If anything, Ryo’s is the hardest (the command is simple enough, but getting it to come out is nearly impossible).
Fixed. Max Ryuuko Ranbu is NOT an HSDM. His HSDM is Tenchi Haoh Ken(big ass dizzy punch).
Repeat after me, Ryuuko Ranbu is NOT an HSDM.
Right, that was the one, sorry about that (it’s been a while since I played Ryo in '02).
:rolleyes: Way to to completely omit an important part of my point. I didn’t say that, I said that the amount of time that potential players have to put into getting the motions down just to be able to compete fairly with other players who have put in the time to learn to do combos with elaborate motions turns them off. Because people would rather get to fighting immediately and have the only skill gap be that of the ability to react and make good decisions quickly, not who’s put the most time in practice mode learning a difficult combo into super. Try actually reading my posts next time.
Personally I don’t really have trouble with such things, so don’t think this is just me bitter than I can’t ROM or something. I’m just looking out for the future of 2D fighters, and what they have to do in order to retain their appeal. Of course, I don’t want to see 2D fighters sacrifice everything that makes them great in order to cater to a wider audience, but many fans need to stop being such fucking absolutist whiners (":crybaby: I don’t want them to get rid of supers with stupid motions" “:crybaby: I don’t want cel-shaded graphics on a 2D plane” etc. etc.) and realize that their all-or-nothing unwillingness to concede ANYTHING is going to kill 2D fighters in the end. Personally, I don’t think 2D fighters stand to lose anything by simplifying the most ridiculous motions, making it easier for new players to get into them. Are stupid motions even a tiny part of what makes 2D fighters great? Do they enhance the 2D fighting experience at all? If you think so, you may need to reassess your appreciation for the genre.
Sorry for the kind of off-topic rant.
Look at Garou: Mark of the Wolves, that game had all the supers simplified and it was good. It didnt detract or make it stupider.
Which is funny, because even the casual gamers I know learn movesets if they buy a game. Or they just pick the few moves they do know and run with them.
Let’s take a look at which games have stupid motions for supers.
KoF(notably 2001 and on)- Okay, I think I said before that most of the crazy motions are for HSDMs, or DMs that deliberately have that motion for that game(once again, 2k1 and 2k2) because it’s “nostalgic”(2k1 Mary, 2k1/2 Ryo), or because it’s stupid strong and the damage ends up being the reward(once again, 2k1/2 Ryo). And note that it’s really for the games that use the 2k engine, as I heard no one complaining back in 98 that double HCB was difficult to do when most heads were picking Akuma in SFZ1-2 and doing his super that way.
CvS Series- Because of SNK chars, although with Capcom systems the supers are MUCH easier to do(do hcbx3 with Geese for Rising Storm?).
GGXX- And even then, there’s nothing THAT complicated
HSDMs aren’t supposed to be easy to do, but the second all of them were known, and we found ways to combo them, everyone practiced until they could use them. So the argument apparantly is, why should some passerby that suddenly sees the game(after living under a rock for the past 3 years), pops his quarters in, then gets raped by the locals because they did O.Yash HSDM setup, have to actually worry about anything other than the 5 moves they show you on the machine for each char, just pick up and go? I don’t think that’s the real problem at hand. For each Geese pretzel, there’s a Ken Shoryureppa. There over 25 chars per KOF, and most of them don’t have these “complex motions” you guys cry about.
So, I have no probs with complex motions. Those that do are just trying to make up for their lack of hand coordination. The only way to fix that is to get out of the instant gratification mindset. THAT’S why 2D is dying. More the english-speaking areas than anything(because something similar to Melty Blood would’ve never gotten the time of day if it were created here). I can accept cel-shaded, you can actually make shit look good if you wanted. But fighting games, no matter what, have had to contain more than the instant gratification in order to last more than a year in general play.
Fair point, but is there any need for them at all? It’s inevitable that there’s go to be some difficult execution that’s simply necessary to learn; hell, I know some newbies that have trouble with d.mk xx fb, but nobody’s going around saying combos should be removed, because they’re integral to the game. Supers with dumb motions that require a large amount of practice to be able to utilize correctly are not integral, so why risk turning off potential players with them?
If I wanted a game that gave instant gratification, I’d be asking for a game where the results were essentially random, and someone playing for the first time had the same chance of winning as someone who knew the game inside out. I’m not. My point is, the true gratification of fighting games, in my opinion, is in learning to play the mind game, learning what’s best to do in every given situation, studying your losses, learning what you did wrong and how to do better in future, and using each improvement you make to your overall game in order to win more in future. Gratification, for me, does not come from learning how to combo into a stupid HSDM; anyone with enough time to spend in practice mode can do that. However, learning how to consistently make good decisions in matches requires an intelligent, analytical mind, something which not everyone possess (although you can definitely work on it, imo). Sure, some level of manual dexterity is always gonna be necessary, but why make that element obnoxiously apparent? Is it really worth turning away potentially good players because they don’t want to piss away time in practice mode learning the excess execution points they have to know to compete? A lot of people here, including me, will do it anyway, because they love the games. But not every gamer is like us (another fact many in the 2D scene seem to have trouble accepting).
I think you mentioned Smash Bros. before, and you hit the nail on the head with it. I have a friend normally hates fighting games but will play Smash Bros. and Soul Calibur, because they don’t involve complex controller motions (among other things). And I suspect that’s true for a lot of people.
Saotome, you raise a lot of good points, but think of it this way: if you’re trying to get someone into fighting games who’s not 100% gung-ho, they’re going to have to learn the motions, and that takes time. I know it took me a while before I could do a Dragon Punch, let alone QCF, HCB (heck, even today I have trouble with QCB, HCF from the 1P side). Now, imagine trying to learn how to do “basic” moves while everyone else has the complex things down pat. It can easily frustrate people, and leave them wondering why everything has to be so complicated, as opposed to other games (Smash and SC, again).
Edit: For the record, I don’t oppose most complex motions. Raging Storm, most of the HSDMs in 2K2 are fine with me, and I understand their purpose (as someone else said, think if Geese or K9999 had their moves changed to QCFx2). I do however, oppose bad input detection, or impossibly rigid timing (Ryo’s 2K2 SDM).
In 2k2 and Neowave not a single one of those HSDMs are even worth using in a practical situation. 2/3rds of them need to be setup(once again, O. Yash, or even O. Chris), and the other 1/3rd can be done to replace the usual combo ender(Ralf, Yashiro, Shermie). They’re not necessary. But they’re there. I wasn’t aware that the 2k2/Neowave players have gotten so lame that they let you beat their bar down to 1/4th, then somehow land an unblockable close C into their HSDM for the win.
Once again, a good parallel for this would be the average mall scrub playing MvC2 getting raped by MSP, or anyone with tri-jump XX inf XX death. Except in KoF’s case, you don’t NEED that to compete. More people complaining about HSDM motions when KoF’s real problem was chars with stupid normals.
I’ve tried hard to get fighting game n00bs interested in 2d, it’s so easy with 3d… I’ve even have friends comment on how awesome strike/cvs2 and motw looks and WOW I want to try that?
And after like 1 hour of just “give me a chance” “I know I can fireball” and a lot of coaching they usually give up most of them anyway…
Capcom had the right idea with MSH VS SF every damn 2d game should come with an easy mode, just so that scrubs can get a feel for 2d and the awesomness it offers.
Yeah, I had to train my roommate for a week and many sore thumbs to get him to ‘just’ like 3s. Many hours in training mode practicing motions and cancels just to get him to like the game.
Woulda never had to do that in a 3d fighting game.
He only plays Ken but he’s good comp for me now.
eh, for those who just want to see who can react faster, stick to smash bros. 2d fighting games take effort. Things that take effort takes more time. If you can’t spend the time to have better satisfaction, then stick to smash bros.
I dont think it should take skill to execute a move its better IMO if it takes skill in using that move in a usefull way for example:in a combo, as an anti-air, reversal or to go through an opponents attack/fireball.
I your concerned about a scrub or newbie doing powerful techniques easily they still might not be able to make use of them.
Take MVC2 for example most super are QCF+PP doesn’t mean scrubs can compete.
every argument has an equal and opposing argument. On the context of selling and marketing, it is a winner if it is newb friendly. VF4 and Tekken 5 is a prime example. As a matter a fact, most newbs would prefer a 3d fighter to a 2d fighter, say SF3. That is why 2d fighters are dead.
anyway, you must remember that kof is marketed towards ALREADY PLAYING kof players, more than newbies. You must understand that, though simplicity is a great sellign point, the best selling point in fighters is the amount of competition. In your context in the US, there are rarely any arcades, and you dun see pplz over 25 rocking up inside to have a play after work hours. However, in the context of asian countries like hk (since i visit there a lot), an arcade is only a few blocks away from work, school or any train station/bus station. WIth so many fighting gamers and resources to all different types of fighthing games, there is a reason why they stick to kof and ggxx more than marvel, soul calibre, tekken and other not so technical games. The reason is simple. It is more satisfying to the player to play a game that requires higher skill levels.
See you missed my point, the fact that its simple to play doesn’t mean that it doesn’t take skill, as a matter of fact it takes more(IMO) because everyone pick-up on the gameplay easier.
-.- you are restricting the argument (YOU SUCK!!! >< j/ks kakakakaka) Skill levels (hmmm) you say that because everyone can pick up on the gameplay, thus it makes the game requiring more skill level to play than a game that is harder to pick up on the gameeplay? That is like sayin’ running requires more skill than hurdles. That is like sayin’ bongo requires more skill than drums. I must say it does take skill to master how to win in a game with easy execution. But definately not more than a complex game. It could even be said that, once you’ve stripped down the complex mechanics of a complex game(done by mastering the mechanics) the skill required in mastery of winning in the game is just as much as a simple game, can be more, but definately not less. Having now noted that skill levels in mastery of winning is the same in both games, we can now talk about satisfaction (which is in the above post). ^o^ btw, i can see another argument coming up (equal and opposite arguments) ^o^. Do come up with one… as im studying the rhetoric. ANd it’s good to put me study into good use. btw dun get offended… ^o^ luv ju’s
How am I restricting the argument?
And what does this mean:(YOU SUCK!!! >< j/ks kakakakaka)?
Easier gameplay means more competition thats why I believe that it takes more skill to win.
Here’s another thing though that I forgot to mention, Simple doesn’t mean easy, for example in MVC2 Magneto’s Magnetic Tempest super is a simple QCF+KK however to connect it in an aircombo consistently is not, it takes practice.
Fuck hard supers. Why should we alienate new players is what I always say. What should count is the strategy.
Let me say this, sure you could pick a lazy afternoon to work at it but why would you if you don’t know how fun the game can really be?
It’s like me playing a game of lazer tag with a friend and him not knowing how to use his weapon. He won’t find that any fun and really all it does is make you WASTE time and makes it more about who has more time to WASTE learning complicated moves. If I beat a newbie I don’t want it to be because I spent 5 days learning to do a pretzel motion for some kind of super fireball, I want it to be because i have more skill. I want it to be because I played the better game NOT because he is handicapped.
It doesn’t make any sense really, it’s not like there are millions of newbies lining up to learn how to do this and if they never see it past the level of learning moves and having things they don’t understand making them lose why would they dedicate any time at all to this? Now more than ever they should be more newbie friendly… the fighting game community is dying afterall.
Really, you complain about the “mainstream” with their “lol halo 2 and GTA” yet there is rarely anything done to attract any new players. We were not born fighting game players, something brings us into it and some of us see some of the great things like competition, respect, and desire to be the best. You can’t get enough and you become hardcore. Why should they become hardcore? The level at which fighting games truly shine is usually hidden from the “mainstream” public eye.
Have you ever tried teaching a fighting game to someone who doesn’t even know how to do qcf motions? Wouldn’t it be alot easier if they didn’t have to spend days learning the motions and just start learning about strategy?