Why does cross counter suck so much?

Cross counter comes out in 3 frames. I’m cool with that, 3 frames before the counter attack is triggered. What I’m not ok with is those 3 startup frames not having invincibility.

An SRK (good ones) comes out in 3 frames too, but you can’t stuff it with a meaty attack/safe jump because the first 3 frames are invincible. Basically what this means is dudley is totally free on wakeup. Even with meter, EX upper comes out in 4 frames and can thus be safejumped.

Would it really be OP if a counter move that did mediocre damage and still caused dudley to take damage had some invincibility, for EX version at least? I sure don’t think so. Everyone talks about how insane dudleys pressure is on knockdown with the ultra coming from an overhead or a sweep, but its really nothing compared to being free on knockdown, every time, even with EX meter.

I was just having a conversation about how Jet Upper’s a bit bad as far as reversals go. Id like it to be invincible on start-up too, at least in EX, but I’m not certain it is. Frame data for him on eventhubs seems incomplete.

As far as cross-counter, i find it really nice used late against jump-ins, but you gotta be wary of tick throws of course. Having invincibility on start up on an auto-counter is unheard of as far as I know. They’re based around prediction, mostly, and punishing your opponent for using moves with long start up inappropriately. Dudley, in general, seems to demand you be able to read your opponent well.

Unheard of? I’ve never played a game where ‘auto-counters’ get stuffed by attacks they’re supposed to counter. It definitely wasn’t like that in cvs2 or 3s. The situations in which CC is effective are very few, because in nearly all of those situations theres something better you could’ve done, resulting in more damage done, and you not sucking up an attack in the face.

…Dudley has bad wakeup options because he’s amazing on the opponent’s wakeup.

Dudley is not totally free on wakeup. People can’t OS your backdash without getting caught by EX Jet Upper.

You act like a 4 frame reversal is useless on wakeup. Do you know how hard it is to safe jump 4 frames? It requires frame-perfect timing. I highly doubt you’re playing on a level where people reliably safe jump 4 frame moves. And not all knockdowns give you enough time to do a safe jump anyways. It doesn’t matter if your uppercut is 3 frames or 4 if your opponent is going to meaty you.

Cross Counter is not supposed to be a reversal. It’s a parlor trick. Its main use is to catch people trying to cross you up. Cross Counter does not do mediocre damage. It does damage relative to the strength of the attack done to trigger it.

You know who else is “free” on wakeup? Sagat. Did that stop him from being ridiculous in Vanilla? Not at all. Oh no, you have to block on your wakeup! You’re doomed! Because obviously if you can’t mash out a reversal in one specific instance you have no chance of getting out of mixups with smart defense. Seriously, either deal with it or drop the character. Learn to block/tech throws.

Cross Counter is the saving grace of Gief/Hawk matchup. That’s already a lot.

I find cross counter to be very useful actually. People aren’t expecting it, and when u use it once it plays mind games on them forever afterwards.

Its good for late jump-ins and people who love to cross-up a lot. Throw in a cross counter once and a while, it does wonders.

and it is good as a taut too, hp version is quick and builds meter.

I agree with topic starter cross counter is stupid

[]just like short swing blow
]jet upper

why did they make al his special moves shitty ?

thunderbolt . Lol dont get me started
jet upper has a weird trajectory and cant auto correct for shit and only ex has invincibility
short swing blow loses to nearly everything. good luck batiting a throw in a game with crouch tech.

I hate special moves which are only usefull in combos. hate them

also dudley options on wakeup arent even that good in a game with

invincible backdashes
Ex moves with armor
Dp ( the ones which actually have invincibility) + fadc into ultra for big damage

Dudley should be just like a shoto and throw fireballs. I like a game where nobody can actually hit you on your wake up. QQ.

Can he get armor break on his normals too?

Howabout EX MGB being +5 on block.

I think that would be fair.

For real:

EX Cross Counter > Ultra.

Oh yea, I went there.

Nah, that would be broken. 1 meter for 400 damage off an anti-air? That’s about as ridiculous as being able to lp Jet Upper -> ultra on a grounded opponent without an FADC. Capcom would never give us that.

In addition to being +5 on block EX MGB should have invincibility on startup. That would help Dudley on wakeup.

In all seriousness, short swing blow is godawful. At least give ex armor or armor breaking properties.

why are people talking like that doesnt work?

Well, it ruins the joke if I explain it, but we’re pretending to live in a fantasy world where Cross Counter is useless and Dudley is terrible, which is what the OP is suggesting. Therefore, something like EX Cross Counter -> ultra would obviously not be possible.

Seriously, though? I wouldn’t dislike Cross Counter so much if the life you lost regenerated focus style, like Gouken’s counters. I don’t even expect no damage at all like Juri’s, but… Yeah.

Not being invincible kind of defeats the purpose of having it as you end up taking damage anyway, only no counter. kinda dum yo.

Trust me, you prefer it this way.

hmm… i actually have no complaints about dudley. I would like to up and say his jet upper sucks, but if it was any good how would you really beat him? lol its like … you cant jump, cant throw fireball, cant cross up, and i hit like a truck with 1050 health and 2 of the best ultras in the game. Change his name to Lord Dudley Christ. Capcom isnt that stupid they wanted to make the game somewhat balanced.

if anything i just wish standing Roundhouse was a little better on anti-air and i would be totally content.

The only problem I have is the fact that Short Swing Blow is made out of ugly ass. That move is fucking terrible and gets beaten by a gentle wind.

Cross counter has it’s uses.

I’m Just after some advice here. agiants characters like Ryu I have major problems with cross-overs. I sort of understand whats going on and I’m trying to learn to deal with it. Most times it goes something like this - he gets close jab, jab, short, jump cross-over (repeat) if he lands the cross over i get punished with a DP or something and he gets in close on wake up to start the preasure agian. Ive tried to Cross counter this but I’m too slow with the input and get punished. crouching HP wiffs because Ryu is already behind me with the x-over. I was thinking maybe Dash forward might work or RH duck. I have this problem with any character that can do a x-over dee jay :crybaby:

any tips are welcomed im a learner to SF4 and dudley.