All that needs to happen is for those same people to play an actual match of Melee or Brawl with items on, and I’m pretty sure it wont get brung up again.
I’m pretty sure UFC games and smash will never be at evo so why are people talking about non evo games? Smash has nothing to do with evo fighting games
Smash was at EVO 2008. It had items on.
Yeah, needless to say it didn’t go so well.
Why would it when the majority of the community play without them?
Uh, don’t ask me. I’m a bit fuzzy on the details since I didn’t go competitive in that game until like November of that year.
Items in Smash are random , not broken.
I’ve always thought its the responsibility of the player to get an explosive crate in the face since they know it has a chance to explode
Just like it’d be your fault if a capsule or b-bomb just spawned in front of you while you were attacking?
Stars? Scew attack, hammer…Hell I aint even talkin about the extra crazy items in BRAWL…It’s rediculous and turns the game into searching for the next item to throw at the opponent…You’ll probably wont even use half of a chars arsenal of moves just cause you can pick up a random item and toss it… which will leave you safer…and 90 percent of the time will do more damage or some other special effect.
Call it what you want. It makes the game less fun AND competitive…I’ve been to tounies where I’ve seen cats beasting with Bowser…would that even be possible to do with items on? Prob not. his walk speed trashes that idea…so ontop of items you have char weaknesses… that would also turn it into a fox vs fox type of game…cause he’s the fastest AND can reflect projectiles…
…Have you guys actually played these games?..Or are you just saying junk just to say it?
Oh yeah EVO2k8: The Whining… Never before has there been such a shitstorm of crying and bitching about a ruleset. Instead of calmly disagreeing or even gasp just dealing with it and adapting to the new rules, Smashers made thread after thread complaining about how EVO, one tournament out of all the dozens upon dozens of Smash tournaments was going to ‘ruin their game’ and how they were gonna boycott and shit… Good job Smashers in ensuring that your game will forever be relegated to side-tournament status.
On to the topic at hand, ‘broken’ is such an overused term, but there are situations in which a character or tactic becomes so overpowering and dominating, that the players at some point have to make a choice:
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“Stick it out”… Learn the match up inside and out, figure out gimmicks and strats with you character to alleviate some of the lopsidedness and perhaps swing things back in your favor. Learn your game so well, that the only way for the overpowered character(player) to beat you is to indeed know his shit just as well as you do.
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“Can’t beat 'em, join 'em”… Seriously. The character or tactic is so centralizing because its good, so why are you limiting yourself? If you really are ‘playing to win’, then suck it up and pick up the character and start beasting on cats. Again, you should learn your match ups so you don’t get caught unaware and lose to some low-tier gimmick or off the wall style of play.
Sometimes though, the overpowered tactic/character is just that-- way too strong for the rest of the cast. Obviating like 90% of the games content due to programming oversight, bad game design, or in some cases, a badly developed metagame, this ‘brokenness’ cannot be overcome through sheer skill or creative gameplay. Indeed, in such a situation, players themselves must decide if the game is still worth playing when options 1 and 2 fail. The player base begins to dwindle, new players stop coming in and jaded veterans move on to other titles, and eventually the game’s scene dies off and disappears. It’s the Circle of Life, and it moves us all…
To be fair, Brawl at that point was still a developing game since it was only released a few months prior. People were still used to using the standard Melee ruleset. Of course, nowadays it’s been accepted that items are simply too random to be used in a competitive setting.
Still, I’m not sure why EVO went with the ruleset that they did. Was Melee ever part of EVO? If it was, were items allowed then, too?
No clue about items, but 2k7 had Melee, and it made me want to punch everybody that year.
Places that year were: http://www.kuroppi.com/tournamentresults/evo/
http://www.kuroppi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/usa.gif
1st Ken “SephirothKen” Hoang Marth
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2nd Hugo “Hugs” Gonzales Samus
http://www.kuroppi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/usa.gif
3rd Joseph “Mango” Marquez Jigglypuff
http://www.kuroppi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/usa.gif
4th Christopher “PC Chris” Szyigel Falco / Fox
http://www.kuroppi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/usa.gif
5th Daniel “Chu Dat” Rodriguez Ice Climbers / Pikachu
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5th Eddie Howells Ganondorf
http://www.kuroppi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/usa.gif
7th Kashan “Chillindude” Khan Fox
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7th DieSUperFly
Shiek
I guess my problem with Brawl is that it’s such a defensive game, and without items it gets really boring. With the people I play with, Final Destination is chosen like 75% of the time, and items are off. Matches honestly take forever to finish, as offense isn’t as good as it used to be in the older titles. I dunno, the game just seems really boring b/c you feel like you’re playing a stripped-down version of it, where you’re only allowed to play with certain aspects of the game. I understand stuff getting banned, but Smash is the only game where banning covers such a wide range of the game’s resources. In the case of Brawl, I honestly don’t think it was meant to be competitive as it is.
The freakn Devs went out of their way to make it less competitive…Freakn retarded…You have a hardcore fanbase…and you just shit on them like that? Sure whatever you dont like em…but you put in mechanics to spite them? Who honestly had the bright idea that tripping randomly is fun…or slowing the game down? That’s why I dont play smash anymore.
I’m not discussing the competitiveness or the fun of Smash, nor what items would turn the game into, leave that talk to Smashboards
My point is just because something requires more effort/is annoying to get around/requires a different playstyle to doesn’t make it broken , like OP seems to think with TvC giants, or like you seem to think with items in Smash
Random =/= Broken , or else Smash players would not play Brawl because tripping is random , or would ban Peach because of the stichface, Kind Dedede because of the Gordo, or Mr. G&W because of the 9.
So yea, if you’re a player that plays Smash , I assume you’re talking about Brawl, that plays with items “competitively”:
-be aware that capsules or crates do spawn in front of your face, don’t use moves that have a huge ass startup in a way that you can’t roll away in time just because your opponent is in the range , leave that to non-item play.
-stall/ledgestall/run away from Starmen/Hammer/Golden Hammer, don’t just sit there and take the hit , none of the stages in Smash are 2 feet long , not even Smashville, and some characters are very good at stalling, choose them.
The same can be applied to playing defensively when up against X-Factor in MvC3 or being careful about giants not getting hitstun by most attacks and being able to Baroque into something else as soon as you touch them.
-dont care about using all the chars arsenal or Bowser not winning, if you’re playing to win
-You do know that you can catch items mid-air without the use of any reflector right? RIGHT? Mr.“Have you actually played the game” “Item games would turn into Fox vs Fox”
-come back when you’re on topic about actually broken stuff/characters in fighting games, and not whining about stuff that is not actually broken and being arrogant about it on top of that
Randomness pertaining to a characters moveset is fine cause that randomness is controlled…stage? No. Ever heard of Faust? That’s like Sf4 having an invisable dude who would use his sorcery to make bombs(unblockable) n shit appear out randomly…And then you saying “lol you shoulda been lookn for that”…Ya know I’m kinda getting brain fatigue from this discussion
Haha, have fun playing smash like that…Maybe that’s your thing…But it’s still dumb.
…So let me get this straight…You would sacrifice character options/variety and overall number of people to compete with for the ability to use items in smash??..Cause lets be honest…If people really felt like you do then They’d be doing so now and this topic of smash wouldnt even be brung up.
Cant think anymore…
A lot of items in Brawl actually are broken, though. Including the obvious Smashballs, Assist Trophies, and Pokeballs, there’re also Bob-Ombs, Lightning, explosive Capsules, Homerun Bats, Mushrooms/Poison Mushrooms, Heart Containers, Deku Nuts, Bumpers etc. You could be simply jabbing and hit a Bob-Omb at the same time if the game decides to spawn one right in front of you and you die at 40%. How could something like that be tournament-legal?
Really, the only item that can even be considered for normal tournament play is Food, and even that is iffy.
I don’t see how stuff like Green Shells, Homerun Bats, or Beam swords qualifies as broken. A good amount of the game’s items are pretty decent without being blatantly OP.
Simply because they kill people way too early. At this point everyone knows how to handle items effectively (thanks to Diddy and his Banana shenanigans) and can create traps that are extremely hard to escape without being hit. Green Shells and Homerun Bats kill people at like 50% (Green Shells probably a little later), and Beam Swords give characters way too much range while also being a strong item when thrown (I know I’m worried if Peach pulls one out and I’m at 80%).
If characters are going to die at 60%, it should be due to an extremely hard read or a well-executed gimp, not because you got lucky with an item spawn.
Thing is, I consider that a welcome change when it takes characters forever to die in Brawl. Seriously, I back-throw someone with Mario near the edge at 125% and they’re still alive?! And here’s the thing, the high damage isn’t really broken if everyone can do it. Sure, you may have gotten lucky since that item popped up, but you still have to land it. Smash has tons of ways to avoid a damaging projectile flying towards you, so that point’s kind of moot. I mean, G&W can kill with a lucky Judgement, and that doesn’t make him ban-worthy.
Okay, so items interfere with your ‘vision’ of how Smash should be played. You say all items are broken, someone refutes that by naming off the ones that actually are, so you revert to items are random(which they are… but aren’t really… refer to my first post in this thread on item spawning).
Someone points out that you have never really used items, so you fall back on ‘they kill too early’… when a character like Game&Watch or Luigi can end your shit before you ever see 100% with one move… Shout outs to Meta Knight’s Shuttle Loop that can kill at almost any % at the right range.
Please stop this unnecessary derailment with Smash stuff. You obviously have your preferred playstyle and no one here really cares. The only thing broken about Smash is the broken record its ‘defenders’ keep playing over and over again…
People really over-exaggerate how long people live in a stock. Unless the other character is playing super-defensively, it shouldn’t take more than 2 minutes on average to take off a stock (unless you play like Samus or Sheik, but even they can do it if they rack up enough damage).
By the same token, people underestimate just how versatile items are in Brawl. There’s a reason why Diddy is the 2nd best in the game. With options like Glide Toss, DACIT (Dash Attack Cancel Item-Toss), Instant Item Toss, ADCIT (Air-Dodge Cancel Item Toss), Z-Dropping, plus being able to toss an item out-of-shield, items give characters a ton of defensive/offensive options that wouldn’t otherwise be available. Heck, this would promote even more camping because it’d be stupid to approach a character with, say, a Homerun Bat if they can kill you instantly for hitting their shield with a jab. This is why matches that have Diddy in them usually take so long; both players must play super-defensively (plus Diddy’s kill-power is sub-par).
You can’t even compare it to G&W’s Judgment because it’s slow as heck, has next to no range, and he can’t even do it out-of-shield. It would fall under the category of “hard read” if you ever land it, like Ike’s f-smash or Snake’s f-smash.
EDIT: @po pimpus:
You act as if “broken” and “random” are mutually exclusive in this case when they’re not. The “random” part comes from what kind of item will spawn and where it will spawn. That’s bad. The “broken” part comes from the item itself, in which case almost all of them are. That’s also bad. Having both of them together is just a recipe for disaster.
I also didn’t mean to derail this thread. I saw someone post something incorrect about Smash and then this whole thing happened. I’d like for this to end, too.