i’m not an 3S player, but i also think it (including SF4 and eventually SSF4) should be judged own their own merits rather than comparing it to a previous series. however, i think the reason this subject continues to easily arouse the ire among 3S fans is because some people do the exact opposite (ironically, including some of the 3S players as well). for example, i hate SSF2NG/ST, but not because of i thought it wasn’t enough like HF. quite the opposite, HF has nothing to do with why i disliked it. so, when someone argues that 3S is bad because parries make it less like ST. well, it’s not supposed to be like ST, no more than SF4 is supposed to be like ST or 3S.
This guy speaks the truth.
Parries are nang, and we all know it.
I’d really like to thank everyone for pointing out that both characters have access to parries. Everyone who dislikes the parrying system never considered this in rational for why it sucks. Boy, that really changes the whole debate for me! I love 3S now!
Also, I hear that both characters are able to choose their supers. Is that really true? I thought the character select screen might have been fucking with me.
if the parry’s too scary, play sleep fighter snore, but don’t pretend it’s a better game. hiding in a corner is not an advanced tactic, and it doesn’t train your SPIRIT, which is what street fighter has always been about (for me at least), not cr. blocking in the corner getting chipped to death hoping the clock saves you, but actively moving forward and taking on all challenges & obstacles w/ a fearless heart & complete confidence in your actions. i don’t know about some of you, but i’m never scared when i play SF, why? it’s just a game! ok, so what about MMs you say? well if i wasn’t prepared to lose that money, i wouldn’t have bet it. if losing is unbearable to you, then you cannot win. to play at your best, you must accept all possible outcomes the match starts, even getting double perfected. if you are okay with a loss, then you can learn from it. if you fear losing, and you are low on health, you will not be able to think clearly, and you will be easily overcome. mental clarity starts w/ emotional stability, & fear is not a stable emotion. watch the japanese play, they don’t freak out win or lose. zen is more a part of their everyday lives, and if we here in america can incorporate these principles, we can be on their level. the first step is to conquer your fear, and press forward, not back, in the face of danger. it takes practice, but you will be a stronger SF player all around.
i cant believe this is being done AGAIN… honestly the players/arguers are mostly the same and the arguments are rehashed of what has already been said… shame on the third strikers AND traditioanl purists for getting sucked in.
at this point the arguing seems more like grade school flirting than anything else.
lol.
both games are great (traditional streetfighter before parry and now after, along with 3S)
i dont understand why people cant just agree to disagree, everyones minds are COMPLETELY made up at this point and have been for a VERY long time.
shit isnt going to change, if daigo came in here and said that he didnt like the parry mechanic, nobodys opinion would change that are already for them.
if he came in and said that he loved the parry system, opinions still wouldnt change on the other side either.
pointless topic that will once again turn into flame bait… its already happened, actually.
-dime
people hate parry because they are too busy holding down + back to be able to perform one.
Sigged.
I’m pretty sure there are more. I can think of advantage/disadvantage scenarios for Chun vs almost everyone. Chun because I know her and her matchups better than anyone else out of the cast, but I’m sure these things also apply to other non-Chun matchups.
The game is still fairly new, and I feel like only a handful of players are really bothering to take the time to learn this kind of thing. For America though, given the state of arcades (dead) and online (not good) its way more of an uphill battle. I don’t know how it compares to ST, but I feel that the strategy is there. Mostly because I’m forced to use it. 
Well…yeah. That’s absolutely true.
I wouldn’t call the strategy formulaic though. Even if you get your opponent in that position of disadvantage, you still have to execute the strategy. And if your opponent knows what your strategy is and their options, then they are probably playing to counter that. …Yeah, the bottom line does come down to guesses/reading your opponent, but without the parry options become worse so that advantage/disadvantage aspect gets lessened a bit.
I rather like this strategy aspect. To go back to the Chun/Rog example I posted, when Rog gets Chun in that position, her options start to suck and her chance at victory gets much smaller. I had to notice this and then figure out exactly why. Okay, so now I know how it works - what do I do about it? The best answer is not to get stuck in that position. So I’m going to be mindful of where we are on the screen, both our meter usage, things like that. If I do get stuck, now I have to work my way out of the hole. I find this type of thing to be fascinating.
But its not for everyone, and what interests one person can be boring to another.
Guessing is a part of all games. No doubt about it. One of the things about parry though is that its safer than most other guessing options. Yes, its not no-risk, if you mistime a parry you are eating a big combo. Absolutely. But compare a missed parry to a missed shoryuken… Missed shoryuken, I am eating big combo, guaranteed. Missed parry…I can eat big damage, that depends on what just happened. That’s all there is to it.
3S takes away some of the imposing strategy that you mentioned, but it its place it forces offense and puts a big emphasis on unpredictability. Some people like what they gained - some dislike what they lost.
3S is radically different, so its almost pointless to try and compare it to ST or IV. Might as well compare SF to Tekken. Like you said, more people should be able to just appreciate a different game, but that doesn’t often happen.
If Capcom ever made a followup to the SF3 series, I believe they should just take the OG SF cast out of it, add some new characters to replace them, and call it something other than Street Fighter. This isn’t to disparage 3S, but just to acknowledge that it is different.
Here, you can see where above everything else, you’re fighting against the parry. More than the character’s movesets or their possible reversals, the main point here is to beat the parry. Sure, the other stuff plays a factor, but you have to fight around that parry first and foremost.
The opposite holds true as well - you have to respect DP FADC and if you just don’t like that aspect of the game, no point in playing. All games we play have had something that had some sort of gameplay mechanic/system that you have to respect. From there it comes down to personal preference.
It’s not easy, sure. But the big thing about that moment has been that he did it under pressure and in an absolute must situation. I can parry the super in training mode, but in the last round of an EVO match with people screaming behind me? Probably not.
I wouldn’t say its impossible without parry. Just, we would need to look closer at the character’s specific abilities. Does Ken have a move that would allow him to escape in time? Or straight-up counter the super? Maybe he could drop back out of super range and force Chun to get to a range where she can throw super. Or maybe he would want to get in her face and just not give her the chance to do it. It’d be a lot harder, sure, but impossible?
As I said before, guessing is a part of all games. No question. In 3S, the guess sort of revolves around the parry, whereas in other games it revolves around the character’s specific tools. Then if we consider that parries are lower risk (not no risk…lower…) then it sort of magnifies that particular aspect of the game.
But again, this is something that really comes down to personal preference.
Yeah, but all games have tools where certain characters get much better usage out of it than others. On this page we’re talking about how much better Chun’s hit confirm supers are than Elena’s. Everyone can use V-ISM in A3 but obviously some characters are much better at it.
DP FADC being low risk, I feel is kind of a misunderstanding. Technically, it leaves the shoto at -1 frames. If everything is frame perfect, and I block DP FADC, I throw out a c.jab which takes 3 frames to come out. But my shoto has 2 frames to get that next DP out, and c.jab loses to DP, so there you go. …That’s if things are frame perfect. Usually, they’re not. It takes us normal humans a couple of moments to process what just happened. However, if I am expecting the DP FADC, and can get my c.jab out the moment I’ve come out of blockstun, then I can beat my shoto who is still in the process of trying to execute the DP, if he’s even got that far. …It sounds like a theoretical nightmare, but I’ve been using this quite a bit - bait out the DP FADC, block it, then c.jab them before they can get their next move out. …In the arcades, so its not a lag thing.
And as jchensor pointed out in another thread, we can make FADC a moot point by making the DP whiff. And, they need meter to do it, so making them burn meter on EX stocks is another option.
Its definitely a good tool, but it’s beatable. I wouldn’t want every character to have DP FADC Ultra. That’d be a little too uniform.
I’d challenge you to find a post where I have specifically said that I hate 3S. Except for the sarcastic post I made a few days ago in a different thread.
It’s simply a different game. That’s all.
And I did play 3S. Not extensively, but for about 2 years or so. I own the game and put in my time with it. So I’m not just making random guesses about it.
Okay, its not fair to say never, but it works a lot differently than in other games.
In IV, if Ryu has full super bar and full ultra can I put him in a bad situation? Sure. What if he had no meter? It’d be worse. Can I put someone in a bad situation with parries? Absolutely. What if they had no parries? Instead of fighting around the parry, how could I utilize my toolset and theirs to make this bad situation even worse for them? That’s all it comes down to.
Well see, here’s the thing.
Infamous Daigo parry. Justin Wong is using Chun. He goes for SAII for the chip damage win. Daigo parries it all, combos into super for the win. Awesome moment.
…Which character was Daigo using? Does it even matter?
a big part of 3s is blocking, and thats why I like it actually. I just don’t like when games overdo it, and give you a fullproof strategy you can fall back on.
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I can think of a few. How about Valle vs. Marn in the finals of West Coast Warzone 1? Or better yet, one of the hypest matches in all of SF history, Justin vs. Daigo, grand finals Evo 09?
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You can’t compare anything from B3 to SF4. None of the fighting games back then had he following of SF4, nor did they have a huge player base of at least semi-pro type players, nor did any of those games have tons of youtube videos for the lower level players to get an idea of what to do in certain situations. Even 3s had that late into it’s life cycle. Alpha 2? Nah.
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I do agree that EVERY old game gets nostalgia goggles. Just look at some of the legends. Jeff Schaffer has those 8 videos on his youtube page where he tells the story of SoCal Street Fighter 2. He covers pretty much everything, including the rise of Mike Watson, and the fall of the scene after Hyper Fighting, and how players like Tomo Ohira hated Super Turbo.
Basically what Im saying is, god willing, we will all be able to talk of the legendary Justin Wong, and how stupid good he was at SF4 with our “Nostalgia Goggles” on.
try throw
There was a lot of hype and build up for Justin Wong vs. Daigo at Evo 2k9 that’s for sure. Just seeing that many people (janitors stopped doing their jobs in the hotel just to walk in and watch) watch us play SFIV was such a huge achievement for SF. It’s like “wow people actually care about SF again”. I will be completely honest in that I didn’t necessarily think the actual matches were REAL hype since I hate watching Rog do anything he does at all though the way Justin Wong kept bringing it back against the big cheese Daigo was pretty awe inspiring just on a “it’s possible” kinda level. I think Daigo pretty much has Wong’s number in SFIV by now but Super will be a whole nother ball game.
Yeah…Wong/Daigo was impressively solid and smart, but it wasn’t like it was the most complete or, aside from the hype and circumstances, the most exciting match I’ve ever seen. It’s not like they were pulling out every trick in the book or anything, whereas Choi/Valle is an amazing display of shoto gameplay in A2, although it’s before ridiculous 75% CCs. I’ve seen some great examples of players triumphing against the odds, and of characters played extremely well, but I can’t think of one where I felt both players were at the absolute peak like say, an ST Otachun/Aniken match. Maybe there’s a Mago/Daigo match out there somewhere where it doesn’t feel like one of them is just getting beasted that day or something I haven’t seen.
Maybe it’s the nature of SFIV, where a character like Ryu has much of his strength in FADC Ultra, so a close match with a less Ultra-centric character is liable to consist of a lot of him getting walked over until he lands a reversal, I dunno.
Dude, that’s unfair because you can tech it.
The problem with people, hating parry is mostly because they are not smart enough to win a match-
Parry is an incredible tool, but not unbeatable, the thing is that you not only have to tap forward but down as well, though this may seem incredibly easy at first glance the time you have to choose between those 2 inputs is roughly a half second. Thats why 3s is only for the strong minded individuals because its a mind game, and you have to be smart, people dont like this because of the fact that in their heads s is just another game, and itS only to have fun they shouldnt have to think much.
A great example of this is kai (sf4 fuerte player) the fact that he wins so much with such a low tier char in top player situations, is because he is a 3s player, he uses fuerte messing with peoples minds, just like, he must do in s messing people’s parrys.
I LOVE PARRY
Yah, I understand. That’s why its hard for people to agree here. Since everyone derives satisfaction from a game from different aspects of gameplay. I can’t say that I dislike the situation you described since the person had to work for it. I just find it way more interesting that theres a mechanic that still allows for a comeback no matter the situation you’re put in. It makes it so that you’re always playing on your tippy toes because you couldn’t afford mistakes during crucial situations, and even when you thought you cornered your opponent. You could accidentally make a mistake, which would turn the tide in your opponents favor. All because of one guess. Some hate that because they don’t like putting so much effort in crushing the opponent, and having their lead dissipate. However, that’s what makes the game quite the rush for people.
Also, I’m glad people dispelled the bullshit about parries being low risk. People vary timing in their attacks in order to throw people off. A parry attempt has recovery frames before you can parry again. Not to mention it takes you away from the blocking state, which makes you vulnerable to opponents attacks. Parrying on wakeup is idiotic unless its an educated guess. “I’ll parry high against this ken cuz he has no meter so he might go for the standing target combo, which does big damage without meter.” Even then, though, there’s a tremendous risk to all this.
eat shit asshole
Well then in IV you’re just fighting around the meter. The only problem is that the advantage of having FADC; while the potential for you to not have FADC Ultra, is very high. So it really does come down to personal preference. After all Shoryuken -> FADC is based all around the idea that “I thought you were going to stop blocking or throw out a move, but you didn’t. And by the way, I am safe from counterattacks.”
Why would it matter, as long as he has a high-damage counter for such a huge opening? Pretty much at least half the cast can combo into something devastating from the huge opening that Chun-Li gives after being parried, especially if you have a lot of Super bar like Daigo did. When Hayao’s parried all of Chun’s kicks he landed Hugo’s SA1, when Ryan Hart parried them all he landed a huge combo using Yun’s Genei-Jin. The punish is character-specific, but I don’t see where you were going with this. This applies to pretty much any fighting game, really.
Azrael, you wouldn’t call the CE Dic loop formulaic?
To reply to OP instead of simply bash on 3S.
Viscants posts clearly explain why Parry is bad for the game as a whole with everything from certain character types being unable to be in the game and mindgames being very much “dumbed down” but i think the mindgame portion is the hardest one to understand.
So i will use an actual simple example of a mindgame that can never occur in 3S to explain it:
Game: ST/HDR exists in both games.
We have a match between Ryu and Vega.
Ryu is in the corner and Vega is pressuring him with standing :mk:
This kick is very high priority and will beat just about every thing Ryu can do except of course Shoryuken.
But the Shoryuken will actually whiff against the kick depending on the positioning of the characters and how far away the kick is being placed.
This leads to the following mindgame:
[media=youtube]bgXY-bYJUQg#t=1m27s[/media] (This is a match between Vega and Ken but the mindgame applies to both Shoto characters.)
This mindgame can not exist in 3S.
Due to parry of course.
Because regardless of positioning and timing in this situation the correct answer is to press forward.
Which leads to:
#1 They were in range i get a parry and i punish.
#2 They were not in range nothing happens.
And this is why the Parry mechanic dumbs down mindgames.