Shari, while I most definitely can appreciate a situation like the one you showed between wong and tokido. I think most new people would consider spamming st.mk like that dumb.
Because if everyones best option is parry it diminishes the variety in strategy to avoid or counter situations, which is bad according to certain people, including myself.
Ye but the big problem just like viscant said is people not being able to understand high level mindgames so i tried to use an easy mindgame and try to break it down as much as possible.
you’re seriously saying that b/c spamming MK against a shoto (clearly a highly advanced technique) doesn’t work b/c they could parry it, it’s somehow dumbed down? your shit is COMPLETELY backwards. spamming is not a mindgame! parry makes BS like this null & void and forces you to actually get CREATIVE with your attack choices.
i could see how if you’ve built your strategies around spamming people to death with moves they can barely break out from, parrying would upset you, but honestly it just forces you both to be better players.
this, i believe, is the difference between real players & scrubs, scrubs find one little foothold in the system that’s safe and they cling to it for dear life. but when their little foxhole is dug out, they don’t know where to go, b/c that’s all they’ve ever done, retreat into a tactic they know is safe, when if they really wanted to advance, they’d experiment more & be willing to take a risk - the payoff is much greater in the long run.
As expected.
Seems you were right Fulaani.
This topic brings the worst out of srk, EVER SINGLE TIME. 
Guys, stop it.
i totally side with you, i think people that hate the parry aren’t as skilled because for people who love to play sf3, you gotta learn how to parry in order to fully utilize your gameplay
Is it like 2002 in here? I thought people got over the anti parry thing years ago, its pretty well established that 3S is a very competitive game (as the heaps of years and years of fantastic tourney footage would indicate…). I can certainly see the basis for why parries are “bad”, but on that exact same note I can see why the focus/ultra system is “bad”. (anyone really want to call out the top level SF4/3S players and tell them they got no skillz? Yeah, I thought so.)
Sometimes the “theory” of why something is bad is much different from the reality of what actually happens. If its not your flavor, thats fine, I get that, I really do, but you cannot really argue with the fantastic history of competition 3S has had, and still has, to do that would just be ignorant.
There are so very many truly competitive SF games out there, I just dont get how anyone can bash a singular mechanic from any of the surviving SF titles and use that as a basis for the game being “bad”. The whole idea of, if you dont like it, dont play it applies here…
It wasn’t his best option, it was his only option. It’s essentially a lockdown strategy which can only be countered with that one move. It doesn’t even matter how awesome or diverse your movelist is or whether or not you are playing a charge or motion character. Once Chun-Li powers up SA2 to chip you, you are finished… unless you have a lot of faith in your parrying skill. Which is why I like Third Strike personally. You can’t be 100% locked down. If you think fast and keep holding on you can always come back. But this only applies to good players with nerves of steel.
And that wasn’t his question. The question is what happens AFTER the parry; he asked me if it matters which character you are using. It does matter because it depends on what kind of damage output you want. Some characters just punish better than other characters. If you’ve just parried an entire Chun-Li SA2 and you have Hugo with full SA1… well… haha
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“spamming” is more scrub talk with negative connotations.
do you think ryu players ‘spam’ fireballs? do you think sagat ‘spams’ tigershots? if it’s working, and people are getting hit with it, then why stop? why attempt to change to tactic B when there’s nothing wrong with tactic A? for aesthetics? because there’s a more ‘zen’ way to play? because it’s against the samurai fighting spirit to use such ‘unfair’ tactics? why put such a negative spin on the repetitive use of one move? have you ever stopped to consider the train of thought behind using that move over and over again? about how much goes into using one move over and over again, and yet being successful with it continuously? no, because as much as you want to sound ‘zen’, you’re actually very narrow-minded in your approach and understanding of street fighter.
spamming is actually one of the biggest mind games, and it happens all the time. repetition of throws, moves, pokes and combos leads the defender into a false sense of security and lets them believe they have figured out the rhythm, flow and pattern of the fight. a quick and abrupt change in that flow now plants doubt in the mind of the defender, and all of a sudden, it goes from ‘defend attack A and be safe’ to, ‘is more of A coming, or will he do B again?’…‘spamming’, as you so eloquently call this tactic, is actually one of the most deceptive tactics that is used in higher level play. check out how many times a player gets thrown, then eats a combo or hit-confirm into super. why didn’t they block the combo or hit-confirm? because they were confused and the ‘spamming’ of one continuous move led them to believe the wrong thing and go with the wrong type of defense or counter.
I think the parry system is what makes me enjoy 3s more than any other SF installment. Games are more fun to watch and more fun to play. I enjoy watching 3s ranbats from FFA or from Gamer’s Vision more than watching Evo coverage for SF4 (or any SF4 ranbats) … the game is just that boring. Maybe SSF4 will change things. ST is also fun to watch and play, but I think that’s mostly just because of how fast-paced it is, but it still can get boring unless you’re watching very top level players going at it.
I constantly re-watch 3s videos. I have never re-watched any SF4 vids.
Why? Because “I’ve seen it.”
Not sure why people hate the parry but I can point a flaw. Parries are a universal defensive/offensive system that has no drawback. Historically Street Fighter involves a balance of risk vs reward where parries don’t adhere to that.
It’s difficult to see by watching, but there is enormous risk in parrying an attack that never comes. Especially against players that like to switch up their timing. Yun is a good example with his dive kicks.
huh, i didn’t relaize people felt so strongly about parries, i feel the misconception alot of people have is that you can slap F and win easy, it takes alot of skill to parry properly, to know when to, and to be able to really incorporate it into your gameplay. People feel strongly about it both ways, I love 3S and thought it was great, and the parry was another layer on the cake, but i can totally understand why people hate/love it. but (as it was said before) 3S is on it’s way out, so it’s becoming kind o f a moot point, but i digress…
Pretentious ST players are quite amusing. This is exactly what I was addressing in my earlier posts. Some people LOVE being able to impose their strategy upon someone without the threat of repercussions from overly abusing their tools.
Now that’s fine and all. We all get the strategy now that you gave us lowly non-ST players an example we could comprehend. However, if parry was present the interesting dynamic would be that the vega would have to find other ways to pressure the shoto player, while respecting his options (parry/shoryuken). He would basically have to be more creative, and not just be like. Ok I forced him into this situation. He has options A and B, and mine are C and D, then choose which counter what. Third strike because of parrying, and other mechanics made it a battle of wits. Being forced into a handful of options is fun to a certain extent.
I understand why people like this, and I guess its just a matter of preference in how one wants the gameplay to flow. I don’t see anything particularly wrong with either game. However, I have a problem with people saying parry dumbs down mindgames, when it actually creates more.
Not to mention third strike makes things even more interesting because of dashing, and the throw system.
Parries definitely do have drawbacks in that they force you to move forward at your opponent and there’s a slight recovery before you can parry again whenever you do a parry. It’s not much but it’s there and people will take advantage of it at higher levels of play. Sure there is no drawback in that you can just hit forward and if you miss “nothing happens to you” though that’s not really all there is to it. That’s just looking at the game from a very “I don’t really play the game but I know when I hit forward and down sometimes I get to parry and punish” There are so many ways to bait parries on wake up that it’s pretty much stupid to do so a lot of the time. You can force someone to parry a meaty s.HP with Ken and then cancel into shoryu. If the opponent tries to retaliate on wake up after parrying the s.HP unless it’s a one frame invincible super (which is stupid risky) they will get fucked. Doing this to Chun Li on wake up she has no answer on wake up. Chun can’t just guess parry on wake up against people who know the inner workings of the parry system.
Once Ken has super meter he can do the same thing to Chun during the footsies. Once Ken gets meter there is no point in parrying his c.MK. That’s going to be one of his strongest offensive tools once he has meter and you can’t just go around trying to parry it to throw that option away. If the Ken players knows you’re trying to retaliate after c.MK he can just cancel into super and fuck you up for trying to punish. This puts the Chun player in a situation where she has to rely on footsies and spacing to beat Ken’s c.MK rather than just simply parrying his c.MK. She could try to low parry and c.MK his c.MK but the Ken player is sitting on a 1 frame super that he can whip out before her c.MK hits him. This creates a style of play where people are forced to play a more footsie oriented game and use other normals and block their opponent’s best normals instead of trying to parry them. Creating a game where you’re trying to get people to whiff and punish whiffs and stay in a favorable range for yourself.
Like shoryu FADC Ultra is something I always like to bring up. Sure it costs 2 meters to use which instantly makes it have some type of risk reward. Though you can use shoryu FADC Ultra similar to parries in a way where there isn’t much risk outside of actually whiffing the shoryu. Which a good Ryu player is not going to whiff shoryu and know his ranges. As a matter of fact not using the shoryu FADC is just as good as using it because the mindset is always there for the opponent in that they can’t use anything but super basic block strings and walk back slowly afterwards or they get punished heavily for trying to get in a favorable range. So playing offense against Ryu or Sagat when they have meter usually equates to sticking a poke or 2 at them and then walk back or low block and pray that they shoryu. Though this limits your offensive gameplan since unlike parries there is nothing offensive that beats a shoryu. You can’t stick out a move that flies over a shoryu like certain characters can stick out normals to counter hit or whiff punish stuff like Chun’s c.MK or b+HP in or Ken’s c.MK or s.HK. The fact that the best 2 characters of the game take advantage of something that forces you to water down your offense so hard is undeniable. Sure everyone can parry in 3S but it doesn’t limit the offense like what you see so often at the highest levels of play in SFIV.
Once SFIV shoryu is in active frames there is nothing that beats it outside of playing defensively. Everything ground based that is offensive loses to shoryu FADC. So this plays into their game of basically not allowing you to do anything offensively while they can basically poke you sitting on meter and once they get a feel that you are trying to retaliate at certain ranges they can go for this shoryu that only loses to defensive movements like walking back or backdashing. Which is exactly what Ryu wants any ways because if he can scare you into thinking that he is going to shoryu you are going to backdash or walk back either way and that just puts you towards the corner. So the advantage you are trying to get against his footsie game is really just setting you up to have nowhere to go when he wants to shoryu you. Then from there he may not even need to shoryu you and will just hit confirm it off of 3 frame jabs which don’t carry a whole lot of risk either at close range.
Sure not every character has shoryu FADC into high damage like Ryu and Sagat do though it’s that element that forces matchups against these characters to basically be about getting in their face in order to not really do much at all. Like in the match I showed earlier Blanka gets in Sagat’s face to not really do anything at all when in any other game he would have had a great mix up opportunity being in Sagat’s face. Though the threat of getting smacked by something he can’t beat offensively unless he risks jumping over Sagat is just not worth taking so Blanka will get full on knockdowns on Sagat and will just stay away from him and let Sagat get back up like his name is Zangeif. The way 3rd Strike’s system works there’s no reason to not do anything no matter what character you’re using other than take advantage of knockdowns and continue pressuring in a favorble position. In SFIV when people get lazy shoryus that are safe on block for 2 EX bars when they’ve already built up 4 EX bars u just tend to fall back in positions where normally you should be fucking those characters up.
Especially when tacked on with issues like how meaties are mostly ineffective unless they involve a jump in. Which limits the mind games on wake up when half the cast has an invincible move on wake up that flies them away from a wake up situation. So you get a SF game that is almost entirely focused on the distance game since with that at least you keep the footsies and spacing but you get a knockdown and unless you’re a couple set of characters the opponent gets to walk away or fuck you up for knocking them down. Unless your character has a ton of option selects for knockdown situations it’s like you might as well not even knock the opponent down.
its stupid that people who complain against parry use SF2 as an example of “real” mind games.
SF3 was always meant to be different than SF2, and the mind games are just different.
SF3 Requires you to be exact with everything you do, so you can’t mash a poke for position (Viscant’s example), what you have to do is know when to throw the poke.
People here keep talking bout parry as if using an uppercut as an anti air, or a fireball for pressure isnt possible at all.
Its still possible but it requires you to think twice before doing it.
Yah, that was a very good way of putting it, JD.
…
Short and sweet!
This video is actually a great demonstration of parrying being disadvantageous. Look what happens to Umezono as he fishes for parries against Hayao; he gets grabbed over and over. There’s also a great moment where Umezono parries Hugo’s clap and then tries to retaliate with b.hp, only to have Hayao block it. In this case, parrying the clap was probably not his best option, since blocking the clap could have given him an opening if Hugo tries to dash cancel the massive recovery frames of his clap.
I also don’t see how parry removes the mindgame of ‘is more of A coming, or will he do B again?’ You can still do this, and in 3S it often works even better than it does in other SF games because not only do you have more/faster normals to work with as an attacker, you now also have the option fishing for parries. So the “Is he going to block, or is he going to try to hit me back?” puzzle becomes “Is he going to block or try to hit me back or try to parry?” Add to this that you know that many players think that parrying is always the best option (when it most assuredly is not) and you end up with a deeper mindgame for the same cycle of actions.
For example, we’ll take a brief look at Alex’s jump in options in 3S. What’s his best jump in attack? It’s jab. It has good priority and frame advantage on block, but it also does not stay out the whole time. If you see Alex jumping in on you with this, you actually have to think very carefully about whether you want to anti-air, block, or parry. Choose the wrong anti-air and it gets stuffed by Alex’s fingertip. Choose to block, and you get set up for a tick throw. Choose to parry, and you run the risk of the other player timing his attack so that it retracts before it reaches your parry box and then punishing you after he lands his now-neutral jump. This type of thing is not even possible in some other SF games because your options are more limited.
Unless you’re at entirely 0 HP, it would be better to block SA2 first then red parry. And don’t anyone fucking say this is impractical because it’s not, it’s relatively easy compared to other red parries.
Scared their round/match is gonna get taken from them by one random good guess:rofl: …3S is a man’s game