parrying is fuckin lame. it slows the match down to a crawl and rewards free damage for people fishing for a hit.
its basically giving everyone geese’s counter with no whiffed animation and allow you to followup with anything you want.
if you think that parrying isn’t ludicrous, capcom might as well come up with a button no charge headbutt for honda or give sagat a one button tiger shot.
Um…even without parry Chun is still wholly better than Elena. We’re talking about a character that pretty much forces you to low block or risk losing 35 percent to half of your life. Elena’s super doesn’t do quite as much damage and Elena can’t force you to crouch block the way Chun can so it’s easier to deal with her footsies. Like Septimus also explained…b+HP covers a shit load of the screen space and is free confirm to super as well. As solid as Elena is she is A HALF ASSED Chun. She definitely doesn’t have close to everything Chun has. She does not have a freaking RESET off of her first super to allow her a 50/50 game for landing a SECOND super. Chun has at least 7 different normals at close and far range that can land into her super whereas Elena only has c.MP or c.LK. Some people consider c.LK a confirm but it’s an extremely hard hit confirm and nowhere near as easy as Chun c.MK.
Quoting this for emphasis. Seriously, if you want to know how parries changed the game, there is your answer.
tl;dr version - With parries, you can never really be put in a bad situation. In Street Fighter, I can use several things - the game system, my character’s moves and attributes, your character’s moves and attributes, the stage, etc to put you in a position that’s advantageous to me and disadvantageous to you.
Imagine a war sim - my unit isn’t really suited for close-range fighting, but I have some nice artillery. I look at the terrain - there’s a ravine a few clicks away. If I can get you down that ravine, my chances for victory increase greatly. Its not guaranteed of course, but it gives me a huge advantage. I’m going to do everything in my power to lead you down there. I may sacrifice some of my own resources or choose not to engage you in other areas. You know the terrain is there and you don’t want to get lead into it, so you will do whatever it takes to stay away from it. And at the same time, try to lead me into a position where you have the advantage.
Non-parry Street Fighter has the same dynamic. Yeah, I’m looking for openings and trying to hit you, but what I really want to do is put you in a position where I have the advantage. You will want to avoid that, and put me in a situation where you have the advantage.
But parry takes that away. Its your best defensive option, and its always available. So I can never really put you in a bad situation, because you have this tool available that really counters everything. Going back to the war sim, I got you down the ravine, but you have this magic shield - if you use it correctly, you can cancel out my attacks and then you can counter-attack while I’m reloading my arsenal. So, more than anything, my attacks have to be done in a way that you can’t use the magic shield. It really doesn’t matter that you’re down there in the ravine, more than anything I have to make you think I’m doing something you’re not expecting me to.
Eh, the tl;dr is also kinda tl;dr but that’s the general idea.
Its worth noting that what is exciting to watch and gets people pumped, isn’t necessarily skillful. Usually, quite the opposite.
Think about other sports. Let’s say football. Brett Favre has the ball on his own 20 late in the 4th quarter. On 3rd down he drops back, gets a nice pocket, finds one of his receivers sprinting down the field, and throws a bomb to him in the end zone - the receiver makes a leaping fingertips catch for the touchdown. This will get people out of their seats and screaming. It will be on Sportscenter highlight reels, and people will be talking about it the next day. “Man, did you see that catch? That was amazing!”
Its exciting, but it didn’t take a whole lot of skill. Sure, he had to have his offensive line give him the pocket, he had to actually make the throw, and the receiver had to make the catch, but that’s about it. They’re pro players, we kind of expect this from them.
Now let’s say 1st and 10 at his own 20. Favre runs some running plays and throws some short passes, getting 4-5 yard gains and 1st downs. He methodically marches his team up the field, keeping the ball in-bounds to run out the clock (or getting it out to save it), gets to 3rd and short, converts it every time, gets to the red zone, then makes a short pass in the end zone for the touchdown. This is far less exciting than the hail mary pass. No one’s going to be like "man, did you see that 80-yard 16 play drive! That was spectacular! But it took a lot more strategy to pull off than the hail mary.
That’s how it is in general. Fast break dunks in basketball are more exciting than pick-and-roll layups, homeruns in baseball are more exciting than base hit, sacrifice, base hit. But what’s exciting isn’t necessary the most strategic.
Even the Daigo parry - yes, it was hype, it got the crowd roaring, it was an amazing display of keeping your cool under pressure. But strategically speaking? There wasn’t much to it. Is Justin going to throw super? Maybe. Can I tap forward 17 times? Yes. I win.
Hopefully Super does a better job of what you’re talking about also Azrael.
[media=youtube]eKCChmfkSj0[/media]
Typical SFIV match showing lack of reason to put someone in a bad situation and actually try to win the match. Especially by Blanka. In the older SF games Blanka actually tried to win against Sagat even if it was uphill he couldn’t win unless he actually got in. Now that he’s stripped of anything really powerful at close range other than strings that can get uppercutted he might as well time the round out. I do like how Sagat was able to take advantage of cross up knees after he forced Blanka to run out his meter but unless that happens it’s just a ton of stalemating at close range. Even if Blanka was actually trying to make attempts to get in and pressure Sagat’s BS is always keeping him from applying any real layers of offense at close range. Hopefully there’s less of this.
I think the strategical elements of the gameplay from a distance were interesting but at close range it’s like no one does anything. That’s not what SF used to be. This whole fighting that is only done within the space away from each other shit in SFIV is lame. There’s only a few set of characters that can really pressure and apply real games that aren’t “jab jab then walk 2 steps back and pray uppercut doesn’t happen”.
Viscant’s post on parries is dead wrong concerning positioning. Do you really think that SF3 has no advantageous positions to be in? Remember when people used to shove people’s knocked down bodies in the corner purposefully because it was so important for them to be there?
The parry is not a defensive tool that has no risk like some people are claiming. If you parry at the wrong time; and people do; then you will eat a big fat super combo and get knocked out of the game. The timing is strict and precise. Just like the above post claiming that it is super easy to do a 17-hit parry of one of the fastest supers in the game and that it takes no strategic forethought… give me a break. That was a 100% bait into pure magic, one of the essences of fighting games. To sum it all up, acting as if the parry is the end-all, be-all of defense is incredibly stupid. It’s useful, but it’s by no means dominant. Sometimes it even works against you to parry (Dudley SAs anyone?).
It’s called being unpredictable. Mix up your game, but do it even more. The only reason people hate the parry is because the fireball game was 95% nullified, minus Akuma’s air fireball and Ryu’s Shakunetsu. People love fireballs more than their firstborn children on SRK and that game made the fireball which was a predictable move in and of itself, mostly useless. They call it a zoning game… but in SF3, a zoning game meant taking actual risk to your character’s health bar. Although I do think it is funny that two EX fireballs contributed to Daigo’s infamous comeback.
tl:dr people are going to write long, pointless paragraphs, but the truth of the matter is that people who don’t like parries simply watch videos and don’t try to play the game the way it was meant to be played.
I live in Beaufort, SC and there’s not much of a fighting scene here, but Charleston is supposed to have some very good players from what I hear. The cat I saw playing Third Strike in the mall could have been from Augusta, Ga for all I know.
Yeah fireballs are far from useless in 3S. Sure regular hadokens aren’t that hot but EX hadokens have pretty much the same zoning capabilities as any other fireball and in the end SF3 was not meant to be SF2 with parries. Ryu’s EX hadoken was beastly, Remy could throw more than one sonic boom on the screen and EX ones came at you 2 at a time and hit high and low at varying angles. Regular hadokens only sucked in 3S because they were toned down in attributes. Bigger start up frames, slower travelling speed and harder recovery (you can get punished on hit for a regular hadoken with certain reversal supers from anything but outside sweep range).
Akuma’s air fireball was still mad beastly and great space control. Parrying Akuma’s air fireball gained you no real advantage as opposed to blocking it because it would put you in a stun either way and set you up for parry traps since you can’t parry 2 things at once.
Props my man for the line, "People love fireballs more than their firstborn children." I might have to put that on a T-shirt.
Well, that is (unfortunately) Blanka’s game in IV - get a life lead, drop back, and counter them defensively. Letting Blanka get a life lead is kind of like letting the guy with the sniper rifle climb up to the bell tower. Whenever I fight against Blanka, my immediate goal is to always be ahead on life, and force Blanka to actually be offensive. I have to recognize that life lead is Blanka’s advantage, so I do whatever I can not to fall into that. If I do, then I have an uphill battle of sorts, but I’m going to attack Blanka knowing that he either wants to counter me, or run away when the corner gets too close.
I think the Sagat could have handled this match much better than he did (feels strange to say that about a Grandmaster Sagat…). I don’t know what tools Sagat has to deal with runaway Blanka…but its Sagat so I’m not too sympathetic towards him. 
Even regular SFIV does have these situations where you can put someone in strategic disadvantage. A couple of months ago I was sparring with Pamyu’s Balrog - I’d be doing okay until a certain point in the match, where I always just lost due to various factors. I had to sit down and think about why, and I realized that he was putting me in a very specific situation that was disadvantageous to me. I wrote about it in the Chun forum here - http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=166280&p=7599586&viewfull=1#post7599586
If we were to add parry to the game, Chun’s life would become much easier here. She could even jump at Rog - Rog would have to think about if he’s going to anti-air, or if Chun is fishing for that to parry and punish.
It not that parry is no-risk - its relatively low risk. Comparatively. The easiest way to see this is if I decide to try and do something other than block defensively, and my opponent does nothing. If I throw out a reversal that is blocked/missed, now I’m going to eat damage. If I throw out a parry and my opponent does nothing…nothing happens.
And the problem isn’t “parry everything”, its that since you have this at your disposal, I have to respect it. If I am predictable in any way, shape, or form, then I’m going to lose to parry. So now the game revolves around me having to be unpredictable in order to not lose to it. It doesn’t matter if you actually parry or not - I have to respect it. Its similar to DP FADC in SFIV. If I’m fighting Ryu/Sagat, and they have the meter for it, I have to respect it. They may or may not do it, but if I don’t respect it I AM going to eat it. Same deal with parries…except everyone has them, and they can be done at any time.
Not to say this made the game bad. SF3 works on its own terms. It just made things radically different.
And as I understand, a lot of people can parry Chun’s super. I’ve done it in training mode. The parry itself wasn’t impressive - it was just the situation - do or die in a major tournament with hundreds of people screaming behind you. The strategy behind it…yeah, he baited it out. That’s about it. It wasn’t some strategic marvel. Think about how different that scene might have played out if there was no parry in the game. How does Daigo win?
What Viscant was saying is that there’s more to non-parry SF than just being unpredictable, or as he put it “hey I thought you were going to do this but you did that instead and boy was I surprised!”
In those situations of strategical disadvantage, its not just about “hey, what’s he going to do? What am I going to do?” Read the example Viscant posted about ST Vega vs Blanka and see where that’s about more than just being unpredictable.
I’m sorry but maybe in SF4 they don’t like taking fireballs with all consequences. How does your post make sense? Ryu is still good in 3rd Strike.
It slows matches down to a crawl that’s why they are the fastest matches in the SF4 series right? It doesn’t slow anything down. You’re just an idiot. So basically, since a no charge headbutt and one button tiger shot are equal to a parry EVERYONE should get them right? Stop posting.
Any time you see people say fireballs are useless in 3s you know they have no idea what the fuck they’re talking about and only spit out shit they hear from other people, who as well don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about.
these posts are getting me heated, basically, people don’t know what the fuck they are talking about
viscant is not a 3s player, he dosn’t understand the parry system, he just talks shit cause he sucks at the game, i don’t give a fuck if he is OG
sf in general involves educated guesses all the time, which is what a parry is
sagat jumping over a ryu misplaced fb to get basically a 70% combo? typically when people jump over fireballs at that range, they don’t react, they make an educated guess and it rewards them heavily. wakeup uppers into fat damage? another guessing tool. mashing uppers fadc ultra in gaps to get fat damage? YET ANOTHER EDUCATED GUESS
do people really like throwing plasma that much? shit is boring as fuck to watch, because of parrying, sf3 is a slugfest which is one of the reasons i like to play that game
another parry thread huh?? LOL.
Yeah Az my point is more characters should be able to set up those kinds of situations. It’s pretty obvious that Rog can set up stuff like that because he’s one of the few characters that are actually scary when they are in your face if you’re not using a shit character. He has a range of normals that have very quick start up and active frames and hit boxes on his jumping normals that are practically absurd. Rog never has to worry about using unsafe block strings because his jabs are so long ranged and so safe that the risks he takes once he closes you in with meter are very minimal if even there at all. I think Rog’s options to pressure people are almost a bit too safe because of how risk free sitting on jabs are for him. If he had everything but the lame jabs and easy mode jump normals I’d be pretty much fine with his character design.
About the parry thing…in 3S most characters had some kind of a normal they could cancel into a special or super to mess up parry attempts from the air. Even characters like Q could hit s.LP and cancel into qcb+LP to make parrying riskier. Sure it gives you an option to escape but it’s not really as limited as “is she gonna parry or should I AA”. If the Chun player was fighting against a Dudley player the round would basically be over for Chun committing to a jump against a metered Dudley. Uppercut cancelled into super or target combo into upper into super for the lose. If you parry that on reaction you should pretty much win the game.
But that was my point, actually.
Elena doesn’t force the low block/parry option.
If c.mp did force it, then she’d be up there with Chun, a mi.
But that’s just me.
I’m not saying she’d play exactly the same - her meter would give more fexiblity, actually, given her EX specials combos - but she’d be hella tight.
The reset is a nasty point, though, granted.
True, but that’s standing.
Elena can cancel tons standing into SA2, as well.
And I’d rather have the retardation that is Elena’s b.hk than the retardation that is Chun’s b.hp - but that’s just me.
Oh yeah, the infamous Viscant thread. I love seeing people refer to that, because it only proves my point.
The parry mechanic is so misunderstood.
I think one of the main reasons why people dislike parrying is that they can’t impose their strategy, and play formulaic without repercussions. They want to be able to force you into a situation, and keep you there. That’s what the fireball had the ability to do. Fireballs traps being prevalent in previous games was one of the main reasons why early on the parry was shunned. Now in third strike if you force someone into a certain area with a fireball, like say akuma’s air fireball you don’t get to freely impose yourself on your opponent anymore because of the mechanic. It is something you always have to keep in mind when approaching your opponent.
Also, guessing…people like to downplay parrying into just mindless guessing. Yet, when you see someone in ST bust out their one frame reversal SRK they surely were not guessing. They used their telepathic abilities to learn what their opponent would do to them on wakeup. The reason why this guess shouldn’t be shunned just like a parry is because the guess is based upon opponents tendencies, and the characters current options for each individual situation.
What I like about third strike is that the game is very dynamic and the pacing can change so quickly since the flow of the game is vastly different from previous SF games. I dunno why people can’t just appreciate the games for being different.
I don’t necessarily dislike fireball spam, but I greatly am attracted to games that don’t have that as the centerpiece of the gameplay. In fact my gripe with ST is the throw system (OMG SCRUB I KNOW RITE!!11) not fireballs.
Where is this tons that Elena can cancel into SA2? I’d like to hear about it. Outside of jump ins she really doesn’t have many options for landing the super. c.MP is nice and decent ranged but it doesn’t hit low. B+HK is a really good move (unthrowable and huge hit box) and would be a bit difficult to deal with in a game without parry. Though without the ability to combo into anything she still runs into huge problems against Chun Li who’s c.MK goes under it for free and takes half her life away. Without that huge damage potential like Chun c.MK, b+HP, s.MP, far s.HK on crouch hit and close s.HK to super she’s just not anything close to the same as Chun in overall strength. Chun’s super and the many ways she has to land it is a HUGE deal for how strong she is.
All I have to say is…
Has anyone gone so far as decided to look more like?
whoever lnked that tier list…that shits old as fuck