If you guys think Dander is ever serious then I have a bridge to sell you.
all 3s players are drunk.
always
If defensive is being catious ,then turtle is someone who is sitting to the far edge of the screen holding down back and not doing shit.
That’s the way i see it my friend.
And as i said … If you look at top players , you’ll never see a “turtle”. Instead…Top players will do anything in order to advance and move forward.
East Coast was known for really lame play
Justin Wong use to be a notorious turtle
Eddie Lee
Where’s Arturo to say these new games hate turtling
A turtle is not sitting at the far edge of the screen holding down-back. That’s a terrible strategy unless there’s no other viable option in the matchup. That’s not my definition of a turtle. The only thing you’ll accomplish by sitting at the far edge of the screen and holding back, is that the other guy is simply going to walk forward until he’s in a better position and/or push you into the corner. The corner is rarely a good position to be in.
A turtle is someone who understands the interplay between character strategies, proper spacing and concepts of zoning, and understanding risk v. reward options. Snake Eyez can be viewed as a defensive/turtle player when the matchup requires it. Dieminion is a strong example of a turtle/defensive character. Justin Wong has typically been known as a turtle/defensive player when he rising up in the scene. Turtling isn’t just about running away and blocking, it’s about being able to attack from a safe distance, while being available to counter your opponent’s options if he decides to attack you. It’s about utilizing a strong ground game, combined with your ability to defend against your opponent’s attacks. A basic example is Guile sitting at the max range where he’s able to hit you with a cr.forward, and you’re unable to hit him back. There’s nothing you can do to put a percentage on him. He’s able to hit you safely, whereas you are not. You have to either walk forward and close the gap, use a special move to attack back, back off to re-position yourself, block, go for the counterhit (which can be risky or safe depending on the character) and doesn’t really attack Guile, go for a risky jump attack.
Oh okay, then the misunderstanding here is that your definition of what a is turtle is wrong.
agreed, turtles are beautiful organisms with a nice shell.
I really have no idea why you would make this assumption, when I made absolutely no reference to rush down being a brainless activity. Just because I think a turtle strategy is effective, doesn’t imply whatsoever that any other strategy is equally not as effective.
I would say that rush down does indeed require a lot of skill, but not more than turtling. Both require a lot of calculations, fundamental skill, and the ability to observe and adapt to your opponent’s playstyle and tendencies. But the thing with playing a rush down style is that it can involve risk due to the fact that you’re usually within your opponent’s range of attack, which leaves you open to risk. Even the most aggressive players have difficulty maintaining this playstyle over the years due to this risk factor, and thus why most players eventually adopt a slightly more defensive style, even if they’re known for being highly aggressive. Of course, by then, top players are usually able to adopt both styles of play according to their needs, which is arguably the highest level of strategy, to be able to do both at will.
Attackers do indeed must learn to be able to identify, understand, and manipulate, momentum shifts. Smart players turn on the aggression to max when in advantageous positions (i.e. opponent is knocked down, or in the corner), and know when to dial it down. But even then, let’s say that i notice that you always crouch tech when in block, and thus are prone to frame traps, I will most likely attempt a frame trap to land maximum damage, especially if it’s for the win. But what if the opposing player has purpose crouch teched the last 2 or 3 attack strings in order to convince you to go for the frame trap, and thus, realized that the frame trap is coming, and so opts for the uppercut FADC ultra1 combo for the finish. No matter how good you are at being able to read the player, top players rarely play so predictably, and you will make mistakes from time to time. This minor mistakes are enough to cost you the game, or even the match, against other notable top players.
No argument that rushdown styles are more entertaining, since like I mentioned previously, it’s fun to watch someone on the offensive and land big hits, combos, and clever resets. But I think there’s a quiet and less-obvious form of beauty and skill involved in playing a highly defensive match as well. I think once a person learns to enjoy both aspects of fighting games.
Rushdown’s entertainment value depends a hell of a lot on the kind of rushdown being employed. Some modern “rushdown” characters are ridiculously boring to watch, typically because it (very exaggeratedly, and at least superficially) consists of pressing a “get in” button and then running a train on the hapless victim. Which is boring as hell.
That’s why we need to stop making it so easy on the scrubs. They start abusing these “get in” buttons, nice name btw, and winning. With enough wins on their belts, people start to think, “Oh, this must be the best method to win.” WINNING!
It’s just fucking pointless. So much time wasted thinking about a game, considering the depth and then when it comes time to do you don’t get to apply anything. It’s like going to a University and then working at McDonald’s. I don’t think I need to say much more on that topic.
Also, eltrouble you didn’t tell me why it’s better or why it takes more skill/ability/thought. I wanted to have a discussion on methods, mindsets, why it’s actually better not small talk on the etiquette of fighting game styles. Sorry if you did and I missed it. I’ll read it over again when I start to eat breakfast.
One of the biggest issues with learning to turtle properly is that there are so much less learning resources. There are combo videos for almost every character in every modern fighting game, no one makes turtling videos, and the attempt to mimic it from sight without the understanding of the thinking behind it leads to horrible failure. There are levels of thinking involved in turtling but to an unskilled eye it just looks like doing nothing, or very little, so when they try to recreate it thats what players do nothing and they get trashed. Turtling involves mindgames, and without the knowledge and mind games AND PATIENCE it is significantly weakened. Unless you have a very firm natural understanding of the concept you need to be shown how it works, or spend a good amount of time playing a solid turtle to reverse engineer the thought process.
Respect for turtling comes from understanding turtling and seeing it and understanding it are two very different things. Most people confuse seeing and understanding and that why there are discussions like this.
Mostly because these “lame” strategies throw a wrench into their own plans.
For instance I was playing Marvel the other day. My friend was fucking me up with capn murrika and ammys ice assist. I realized it was mostly because of his shield slash pressuring abilities, so i brought in doom and plasma beamed him to death until there was a full screen gap between us then continued to do so until he died. I occasionally fired hidden missiles if he got too close. My reason behind doing this is that I realized his murrika gets turned into a worthless fuck once his shield is out of range. So i did the smart thing and made sure his shield could never reach me. Promptly upon killing the character he asked “Are you done now?” to which I replied “I have projectiles too, I just started using them as much as you do. Fight fire with fire.” Needless to say that was our last game together that day but whatever. I won so no fucks are given. I’ve just gotta learn to be more ruthless and annoying right from the get go at marvel apparently.
I’ll summarize again, my points. Both play styles take a lot of skill, ability, and thought. But a rush down inherently carries elements of risk. It still requires you to make reads, which can sometimes be wrong, and which can cost you the round or match against other top-level players who don’t give you major mistakes to begin with. This is largely why maintaining an aggressive style is so difficult and nets inconsistent tournament placings, and why even the most aggressive of players eventually adopt a slower, methodical, and slightly more defensive style.
I hate shit like this man, when someone is doing the same move over and over (Helm Breaker, Cap’s Shield, etc) and you finally find away around it then you are the one who is called the scrub. :\
Yeah I know it’s annoying as fuck. When I told him I did because it was working well, he claimed “Sure, doom players use plasma beam. But GOOD ones don’t use it that much.” As if I give a shit. In my experience, Cap can’t do much in the wake of full screen zoning(Not that Doom is the best at it) as long as the zoning is consistent. I forgot that exploiting a characters weakness in order to defeat it makes you a scrub now. That’s like calling someone a scrub in AE for beating a Juri player because they took advantage of the fact that she has weak wakeups, everytime they knock her down. Sure it’s frustrating, and definitely not fun to deal with. But at the end of the day when you were trying to win, it was the smart choice.
I really like this thread man im learning so much, beacuse this is one of my major problems when is comes to fighting games in general. Im a Marvel player mostly but when i first got onto the game i was like dam all theses sexy stylish combos! then as i got further into the game, i notice u needed to play with your opponnet to get to the sexy combos. so i picked some rush down chars to get in faster with spencer wolvi (ect.) then i noticed i was getting blown up for being unsafe by Turtlers. i grew some incredibly bad habbits i can do all the sexiest combos in the world but cant do them in an actual match. even if i land a hit because im not comforable with landing hits. (if that makes sense) but i figure learning turtle style will give me some great advanteges.
I love that comeback because it just means they admitted they lost to someone who isn’t any good with their character, if anything that makes your friend look WORSE, haha.
Unfortunately that’s kind of the way a lot of new players learn the game now, and by now I mean the last 10 years. When I learned to play there weren’t combo videos everywhere so you had to learn the game from the bottom up. Now people get drawn into the game by all of the flashy combos and never learn all of the level of things you used to have to learn before you got to the point of figuring out flashy combos. There was a kid at the arcade a few years into MVC2 who had the best execution of anyone who came in there. All of his combos were on point and high level, but he couldn’t beat any of the regulars because he was all combos and no fundamentals so he couldn’t land hits on anyone.
I like turtling and then the next round attacking with reckless abandon. Hilarious when it works.
I like playing defensive because once you break their offense and counter the opponent and start picking them apart its very satisfying.
Its a mindset, as much as a playstyle.
When MVC2 first came out there was a guy, old school MVC2 players would probably know him, but probably not any new players. He would still run away when he was down on life slightly with 10 or 5 seconds left on the clock and he would win a crazy high percentage of those matches. It would drive me crazy and mess with my head every day because NOTHING in my head would say that the right thing to do when you are down on life with less than 10 seconds left would be to run away. On the other hand I would usually rush in and try to frantically score some kind of last minute combo before time ran out and usually end up losing. It took me months to process that strategy because my brain would simply not allow me to believe that pulling back could be a better option than pushing forward when you are down on life and time is running out.
That was harder than learning a combo, it was learning discipline; even as I was trying to learn how to do this I had to fight my brain every time the situation came up because even though I knew from evidence that there was a way to improve my result by learning not to rush in it just wasn’t what my brain naturally thought I should do in that situation.
(Considering that it’s not how I naturally play, I probably wouldn’t have learned how to do it if I didn’t live in a place where I got to see people do it daily, which is why I don’t really fault people for not understanding it, but I will tell them that they are wrong when they confuse it with skilllessness or cowardice.)
It takes alot of discipline to just stand still in a fighting game, especially if you are a naturally impulsive player and you end up putting a lot of time and practice into something that to other people may look like doing nothing. If you watch a match of two people trying to out turtle each other it can look like the most boring thing in fighting games but there can be a million things running through both of those guys minds every second. I’ve seen turtle matches where “nothing” was going on on the screen but you could cut the tension with a knife.