Taking out the Top Tiers doesn’t solve the problem of the game being “Boring”.
The Best players will typically use the best tools in the game and with that, they’ll just go to the next best characters.
While it’s “boring” for some viewers, at the end of the day, if viewers want a more interesting Top 8 they should be training and practicing to be the change they want to see in that Top 8 bracket.
@d3v MvC2 is an exception all of the shit characters in that game are really just worse versions of good characters the Top4 also aren’t as OP as people think theres more like 16 or so playable characters and another 4 or 5 that would be in that group if you are a specialist play a specialized team and have godlike execution. the top 4 have a lot of 7-3s a few 5-5s and even a few 4-6’s they are beatable though. The game is based around team building and no matter what you ban there will always be optimal strategies. So conventional banning doesn’t help. Like LoL/dota another game based on team comp the only way to balance the game is to constantly patch it and allow player bans between picks.
If were talking about MK9 though Kabal 8-2’s the entire cast his WORST matchup is a 5-5 Kenshi is the same and in some matchups he 9-1’s and If you ban those two you have to ban Lao and Cyrax because theyd be the next 2 kings. This is a degenerative situation it invalidates the rest of the game where as In Mvc2’s case allowing the game to breathe opens the game up. It really depends on the game and situaton but rule set changes are something the community needs to consider in order to grow instead of everytime some one mentioning a rule change us getting
Also Johnny Casual bought the game like you did and if Johnny Casual doesn’t get incentive other than “get good scrub” to become Johnny Tournament attendee then your just gonna keep playing fighting games with the same group of people you have been and not getting the rewards and recognition you deserve till you lose incentive your damn self
also don’t refer to anything I do with the word scrub I don’t know you like that
Which would be a horrible way to “balance” MvC2 and would result in high level play consisting of sub-optimal play and teams.
3S Chun is in a similar situation (her worst is 5:5 against Yun) and the characters below her also also quite dominant, but you don’t see legitimate players calling for bans. The game and it’s system is interesting enough that it has survived for over a decade without any sort of balance patch.
IMO, if a game needs balance to be interesting and engaging at high level play, then that’s a sign that there might be more than a few problems with the underlying game itself.
The problem with this line of thought is that, for one thing, tiers only apply to the highest levels of play. More importantly, balance actually doesn’t have as much influence in casuals picking the game up. Using growing the playerbase as an excuse for balancing doesn’t really work when we’ve seen games that are more balanced than the usual tournament staples not get played as much.
I don’t like how Capcom is handling Ultra SF.
I’d rather see very small nerfs/buffs than a whole patch log where over 50% of the buffs/nerfs are bullshit.
One good thing though is the transparency they use for the location tests where they tell the community exactly what has changed so maybe not all hope is lost and we see a decent final product.
That’s more of a problem with MVC2’s low tier than anything.
Other games at least have more diversity in game plans and playing styles throughout the tiers. Sure, the top tiers may be better, but at least their game plans for the most part aren’t reduced to either “dash in, LK” or “jump in, HK”. A game with balance like that would never survive today’s gaming climate…why else do you think Vanilla AE got patched so relatively quickly?
The thing is, I don’t think AE had anything close to how interesting Marvel 2’s top tier game was. The thing with Marvel 2, is that even in the top tier teams, there’s a greater variety of playstyles than in some other games as a whole. Also, on the same note, AE (and IV as a whole) doesn’t have any tier mitigation factor unlike 3S where the tools are there that can overcome bad matchups at high level play.
In reference to the LoL comparison thats part of what makes the competetive side of the game so hype is that you know the high level players can literally play ALL champs roles and styles. In fighting games you know x player is going to play so were going to see z character maybe y if were lucky and while its beautiful to see those character specialist matches I think Change is warranted and other formats should be embraced and explored whats there to loose trying something new wost case scenario we continue our trend of ever dropping stream numbers
2.Again it depends on the game the way its played etc. A game doesnt necessarily have a problem if the characters do not fit the system its just a design oversight and it happens. Akuma was banned in st because there literally wasnt shit any player could do about air fireball he had disjointed hit boxes he was a character not built for the meta of that game. Chun wasnt banned for a few reasons. No one gave a shit about 3s for one. The system of 3s evened up matches at the very highest level but were talking only at the top 5-10% of players if you werernt in that bracket even journeyman chuns were going to faceroll you. You did however have options. The 3rd reason she never got banned is because she already did her damage 3s had a couple attempts at a revival the daigo vid was huge as well as 3SO release no one wanted to watch or participate however because GF was always Chun v Chun or Chun v Yun. So really you cant ban a character at a tournament youll never have because no one sees the point,
Tiering and balance really arent the same discussion. Tiers are results influenced while Balance is about the design properties inherent to the game. there often is crossover when theory tiering but inevitably results affect tier list and changes where as the same version of the same game will always have the same mechanics and same character toolsets regardless of what goes on in player discussions. There is however a correlation between balance and numbers. Marvel despite still having decent viewership has been having poorer attendance througout the year SF however has been having excellent viewership and still strong attendance. I will agree that there are games that are even more balanced Like VF5 and TTT2 that dont see attendance and viewers but how are you gonna get viewers if no ones streaming and if no ones showcasing the game how are you gonna get new players. Your not thats all a community thing and again not the fault of the devs.
Cam you’re understanding of MK9 isn’t really in the right place, banning Kabal would have helped alot, Lao and Cyrax not much though because Kenshi and Sonya still exist and they’re dumber than Cyrax and Lao. Don’t use examples you don’t really understand.
I mentioned Kenshi as well hes the top 2 with Kabal. Sonya I didnt mention because i just didnt but yeah your right shes dumber than Rax and Lao (EX Cartwheel ftw) I mean we CAN have a very specific discussion about why MK9 is fucked BUT there are at least a dozen threads on tym where people talk in circles over the subject and if youve ever participated in any of those discussions youd know why im not enthused to go over it
The problem with this is that no one is going to seriously consider and respect a game where players can stop other players from selecting their characters. No one’s going to respect an outcome where player beats Yipes simply because he prevented him from running Psylocke, assist with Mags, or if Clockwork loses because his Strider didn’t have Doom backing him up. People would just call out those matches for what they are FRAUDULENT.
Except 3rd Strike actually did have a pretty decent run during a time when fighting games were on a decline. Heck, the game still has a decent sized scene in Japan.
And this shows that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Results often coincide with the tier list but don’t necessarily dictate them. You can have top tiers that don’t win majors (e.g. Zero pre Evo2013) and you can have low tiers win tournaments as well (look at games like VSav).
As for SF, the main reason it’s getting numbers is due to outside factors. First, there’s the Ultra update. Second, Capcom is promoting it more competitively because they can’t get the rights to turn Marvel into a Esport from Marvel. Without these, I’d fathom that Marvel would be pulling more numbers, just like it did back in the day.
I like 3s I’m not hating on it at all there were alot of great design decisions in 3s but your a fool if you think it had any traction before the parry vid came out people were still playing ST and the alpha games then as well as GG, marvel 2, and T5. 3s was always a ghost town and had the lowest entrants.
On topic though
Honestly take a step outside this community with your viewpoint I’ll tell you what looks more fraudulent. Players spending thousands of hours playing these games and dont know but 1 or 2 strats /characters. Zero also was winning a shitload of locals its just that the players of said characters for whatever reason couldnt travel and they couldnt pull out the wins on the national level yet Zero WAS winning Pre 2013 though. Theres also such a thing as tier density I’m well aware of Vsavs tier density because I learned how to play Vsav from an Anak player whos won Majors. Marvel did numbers back in the day before there was promotion and all that bullshit because people where excited about it and showed up people now just arent showing up so the only conclusion to draw since no one in the history of ever has gotten anything real for playing marvel is that people just arent excited about it. Again a Community issue not a GAME BALALNCE issue.
it doesn’t sound like you follow 3s that much. you could probably just say “I don’t have any thoughts on that game” and it would be better.
something I’ve always liked about the SRK Arcsys community is that they’re very good at showing up and rebutting misinformed stuff that inevitably comes up about their games. we need a hero. I must become the 3s Hecatom.
Numbers for Marvel have been going down in most places, still doing great though. And SFIV has always been alot more consistent and usually has higher numbers than Marvel since forever pretty much. The only thing Marvel usually has is more stream viewers, and even then it’s not by much.
I hate it when people bring up LoL.
That game is complete garbage and the casual/retard version of Dota.
LoL is the epitome of balancing going wrong.
The devs are so insisting on forcing a strict metagame and single character balance that the game is played literally the same for 5 fucking years now.
Whenever an interesting skill is in the game that changes the meta like Eve’s stun from invisibilty or Gankplank’s deny skill, the devs take it away immediately in order to please the crying community who can’t beat x hero with hero y.
If LoL was a fighting game, it would be fucking Mortal Kombat 1.
Yeah in the end the most “skilled” player wins but it’s fucking boring no matter how you look at it.