There are 2 separate issues in play.
One, did I accurately convey the number and gender of DB37 connection needed in a device?
Based on this picture:
Issue 2: Stan claims that he did adequate indicate his intention with the DB37 ports. These are the pictures I was told to comment on. If you’re as confused as I am, my point exactly.
This was what I received:
Also is a photo of email that had those pictures:
You doxed your boy Stan and yourself. Might want to edit that, homie.
If I’m going to be 100% honest:
I’m confused at what Stan produced (primarily because it’s just one panel, so there’s no context as to how/where it’s mounted), but I’m ALSO confused at your “requirements” based on that picture. As someone who has built custom sticks in the past, I wouldn’t know what you were asking for solely based on that picture; I feel like A LOT of context and questions are required.
I’m genuinely surprised that you’re still working with Stan. I’m not doubting his skillset, but (even you’ve said so yourself) arcade sticks is not his field of expertise. I have no idea how much money you’re paying him (nor is it any of my business, so I don’t actually care), but you would 100% be better off hiring a arcade stick builder to get your dream stick.
This was what I was originally intended:. the pictures stand showed me are the top and under sides of a panel on a box which is supposed to be a way to reassign button functions and joystick functions assuming there is no way to do it either the OS like there is on the switch and Xbox One or in-game on lots of games with 6 buttons.
My first picture that I showed was supposed to show the door for DB
37’s on two sides of a cross section of the box. The blues are inbound and male, hence why blue, and the out balance are female.
This wiring assumes we have a 180 style joystick, meaning to flip it from right stick left button to left stick right button you take out the main db37 cord rotate the joystick a hundred eighty degrees and plug it back in.
Considering where motley pair only know half of what each of us are doing, we did something amazing I’d like to show on Twitch today how my direction and his hands made an ambidextrous style fightstick without too much compromise in button contour tour.
I got to test my twitch outbound anyway so I might as well show a fightstick at work.
When Stan tested my 180 design using the Cthulhu he was surprised that it actually worked as advertised for all Cthulhu systems, AND properly defaulted to standard Capcom mode for all systems involved, assuming right-stick button arrangement is an index-to-index mapping horizontally and not a left-to-left mapping horizontally.
I think I am able to successfully broadcast on Twitch out now so probably at around 5 Eastern or sooner today I’m going to show off stage one of the Sinister stick. Show it working for Cthulhu-based systems, four out of the five Brook Universal USB systems, and Ms Pac-Man on Sega Genesis 3 button.
Look for my twitch name tripletopper. Seen a little more than an hour.
Sorry didn’t realize how hard it was to set up a Mac for streaming the first time. I thought it’d be an hour and that’s all.
As soon as I can get everything working.
I’ll give a 24 hour warning, and only once I confirm online + streaming
If so, I’ll promote Visible as the perfect net company for people like me.
I’ll stream on the roam with my dad driving for a 2-4 one way road trip challenging people, playing in 3D, and streaming.
If I can only have an external fight stick for 3DS, I can stream Street Fighter 4 in 3D while in motion in a car while challenging people online.
And before Visible, I had to “mother may I” just to play a sub-minimum online game at home without streaming it. Dad found movie streaming.
Well I could play pad socially.
You can’t have it all to start.
The item I am trying to make is a button and direction function reassigned. The DB37 is one pin per digital control, with 18 controls, and a corresponding grounds for each button to make this setup compatible with Edladdin’s ColecoVision PCB, which uses a “2 ground” system.
First, That is true that Stan showed only the Top panel and it’s underside, in pictures 2-5. and has NO pictures of DB37s. I noticed there were 2 copies of the top panel and that’s all
He claim that I should have told him about him being wrong using 2 DB37s (one on each wall) instead of 4 (2 on Each opposite wall.). He told me ai should have seen his misunderstanding.
I don’t know about you, but based on these picture I couldn’t read his mind about him intending 2 DB37s, not 4. I assume he made the mistake of sending 2 copies of 2 pictures each, instead of 4 uniques pictures
If it is his mistake and there was no way I could have reasonably assumes 2 DB37s and correct him. Before being made.
I made a mistake on the 3.5mm holes and I admit it. There was 2 too many… Since it’s probably cheaper to ignore than fix, I just lose 2 3.5mm holes. Luckily, it was cheaper to order 100 from mouser than 80, so big whoop.
According to my original intent, there would be 4 DB37 ports along the vertical walls, on each wall the inputs are males and the outputs are females. Only one male is plugged in one ends and a female on the opposite. My first picture is a cross section. From the “side”!.
The intended design is to act as a telephone operator switchbox. Just take a 3.5 mm male to 3.5mm male cable to complete the circuit on each button. Go from the intended function to the intended button, and repeat.
Also, it’s designed that you only use it if you don’t want the Default mapping
if there is one arrangement I really use a lot, like SNES YBA, I could have a premade adapter that automatically converts BAR to YBA If no one else is willing to add YBA mode, add YBA mode myself.
Stan has been threatening to leave. I might assume he’s not bluffing.
Based on what he tells me, I don’t give the right directions. I say when Stan asks a specific question, he limitsbotbto an A it B choice, and I have option C, and it doesn’t compute.
If money wasn’t involved, it sounds like the Woodstock Slappy episode, where “Who” “Yes” and “The Band” are confusing to use. Both insist they’re delivering straight lines, but the outsiders are laughing.
If I see my mistake. I take the consequences. I pay if I can see the other guy’s perspective and it makes sense how I missed them. I’m not sure if he’ll reciprocate. He told me to leave him alone .
I’m trying to see his side. If I could see how it’s my fault, that’s how I learn. But if wasn’t my fault. I would feel he was, at most charitable, careless.
I’m paying to get back my parts. So I might as well have them sent to another joystick builder. Stan EASILY got paid over $500 over many months in labor alone. I can’t pay all at once, but I am not in a big hurry. I’d be willing to be a lower priority to save money and to double check our work before you actually do it.
I think most of these things have been done before, but not all together with an additional ambidexrtous design that is not a “straight eight”, like the Street Fighter 15th PS2/Xbox stick.
If you understand it, and want some money finishing the job, let me know, and I’ll talk to you. Please wait until Monday. I want you to see what Stan and I have done together, despite bickering.
And Stan, wait until August where we’ll either continue work or I’ll have you send all my parts to either me or my new builder, unless you wish to continue.
By the way, no stream showing off my stick until at earliest Tuesday. You can see how it works.
I don’t really mean to be beating the dead horse, but the biggest problem in your situation is that you hired a guy who doesn’t specialize in arcade sticks, to build you a very specialized arcade stick.
We don’t have the full picture, but if I were to guess, I would say it’s both yours and Stan’s fault. Not really intentionally, though.
Neither of you two specialize in arcade sticks, so you’re both “learning” to do this at the same time: you know what you want, and he can “build stuff”, but you’re relaying instructions to him on “how” to do things. Think of playing “broken telephone” with someone, but talking about specifics on a topic that neither of you are fully familiar with; things are bound to be lost in translation.
Normally, providing more information is better than less. But you have shown to have a tendency of providing WAY too much unrelated information. I’ll be honest, the only way I’ve been able to even understand what you want is by piecing it together from the gazillion threads that you’ve opened. In a nutshell, you want:
In my opinion, there would be very few arcade-stick-builders who would be willing to take on that job; your dream joystick is WAY too ambitious and you’re trying to do too much at once.
Pretty much right on all 5.
1 and 2 are already baked in and done , though mine needs 37 pins to be Coleco compatible. But we could make one Sinister CV to “more standard 19+pin standard” (for 18 inputs and one ground) adapter for non CV project box hookup, which is just a simple passive wire adapter that combines all 18 grounds into one . With that, 5 will happen over time. Some people can do it blind without my joystick there and trust in the faith that science works as it should regularly.
4 can easily be made.
The biggest issue is 3. I think 3 is “half done.” But then again it may be done so wrong that it should be scrapped. I have to look.
Also I’m in no rush, so fit me in whenever you have more free time than clients. l
Also using “standard project box hookups and standards” makes it cheaper and easier. I just have to have my adapter made once .
So if anyone can do Standard project box PCB hacks for 3DO, Wii Classic Pro, 7800, PC 15 pin digital style, and Jaguar, let me know.
Also a direct hookup for 2600 Booster Grip, Bally Astrocade and Sega Master would a help too.
I’ll ask AtariAge people to help with Intellivision adapter.
Also I need a good wood worker to build a platform for next to joystick for keypad heavy games.
I’ll get back to you guys on my telephone operator switchboard for button reassignments.
One of the problems is you aren’t prototyping this. Getting a custom AFS case and fitting a Brook UFB/Retro board combo would solve a ton of your issues. If YOU want an inverted stick why do YOU need all the ambidextrous stuff? A LOT of retro systems are getting added to MISTER and that uses FPGA electrical emulation and uses USB input.
Why ambidextrous?
two reasons the first is I would use it myself because some games with rapid fire I would want my fire button on the right hand. Also I have so much muscle memory of getting the world record in Simpsons arcade are playing it right stick would be goofy handed.
And second is to prototype a model to show to some mass joystick maker. Hori USA remembers me and said that they got about three months work to do before they have an opening review my Sinister Stick. Hopefully I’ll put my money where my mouth is and fund a tournament. I can’t win the tournament but I could do the next best thing is beat a high percentage of people who are willing to invest their money to win a street fighter tournament.
If you saw the second daily semi-final hole on Holy Moley that was on last Thursday, (the “looking for love”, July 9th 2020 episode) it’s a situation where normal right handed putting would have landed two people in the drink. There was literally not enough real estate to do a right-handed putt.
And since neither thought an ambidextrous putter would be handy, they did do some crazy things with their putter in order to hit the putt.
One of the made their crazy shot, and the other one missed their crazy shot and that was the difference between advancing and being eliminated.
I have a similar personal moment in a mini golf tournament I organized. I’ll get the clip later today.
I can’t believe I’m going to be writing this, but here goes.
Summing up what a ton of people have told you in a ton of different threads:
In general, large companies will NOT take ideas/concepts from the casual public. Primarily because it can lead to ugly legal issues if ideas are adopted. Their response of “We’re busy now, but we’ll review later” is more than likely to be their polite form of “Thanks, but no thanks”. If they were actually going to pursue your idea, they would’ve snapped at the chance.
If you REALLY wanted to make a point that your left-handed sticks are better, winning your locals is only the tip of the iceberg for what you can do. Until you can show that ANYONE can stand their ground against world-class players like Daigo, Infiltration, Tokido, Xian, Justin Wong, etc in SF/MvC/etc (in terms of execution), you’re not going to get any real traction. You will have take your prototype around the world to all the large events (EVO, CEO, Capcom Cup, etc) and literally have thousands of people use it and support it before company would be willing to back you on it.
Lastly, I don’t really know why you think that these companies want to “make better players”. They don’t. The ONLY thing these companies care for is to make money. And for them to make money, they need to sell a product that people will buy. The modern retail industry doesn’t sell arcade sticks to make people become better players; they’ll selling arcade sticks for the experience. Putting out a second product that’s similar-but-different (ie, left-handed-joysticks) to their current already niche-market-expensive-product is NOT a sound financial decision.
That being said, don’t let that deter you from making this stick FOR YOURSELF. We here in the Tech Talk of FGC would love to see our community products being mass-produced by the large companies, but the reality is that arcade sticks is such a niche portion of a niche demographic of an industry that it’s really not likely going to happen.
Well my “sales story” which actually happened is where the best all around video gamer was perfect against 4 of us 5. I blanked everyone, and then everyone else blanked the best fighter.
And he later won a big TV reality competition determined by gaming skill and parlayed that into a WCG Ultimate Gamer appearance He’s Jamal “Zophar321” Nickens.
That’s a fairly big name to blank. Of course this was before he was on TV. And his main speciality is being naturally good at almost any game. Not exactly a well studied fighter. But great instinctual fighter.
And, yes I want an Ambi stick anyway. So I will be happy knowing I have such a stick and playing with it.
It’s just that too many issues crept up because of all these buttons. It was bad enough with 2 buttons, when sticks were hardwired to be either left to left mapping or index to index mapping. That problem got worse with 3 buttons, then 6, then 8. If Beeshu couldn’t figure out how to make a mass market ambi stick without leaving big holes in arrangements, then it was over.
It makes a great beginner to Internediate stick. Once you’re advanced, you’re usually set in your ways.
The main thing is it works for me. It also gives me a “free chance” to try sonething., But that’s a side issue. Since I’m my own user, I do not want a repeat of KY Enterprises.
Besides, unless it’s millions of units overnight, the rewards would be little compared to the risks of jeopardizing my sure social security income.
So that’s why I’m also talking to Able Gamers. They specialize in helping the relative few with normally game hindering disabilities. His are more extreme and are modern. Miracles of technology. But this can be their more “consumer model” to help with the less debilitating, but way more frequently occurring, handicap of goofyhandedness.
As for making better players, Beeshu did advertise the ad advantage you get by using a Superstick. They advertised, “better scores (plus in small print “vs standard equipment”) or your money back.” Since Beeshu is OOB, I have no idea how many took the refund vs how many it sold.
Again, can’t believe I’m still beating the same dead horse here.
Ever stop to think that it might actually be just marketing/advertising jargon, and never actually taken seriously? EVERYTHING back in the 80s was “guaranteed [something] or your money back”. It was the sales pitch of the century.
How can they “guarantee” higher scores? There’s no metric for it. Have you ever heard of anyone ACTUALLY claiming they didn’t get higher scores, and Beeshu refunding them? I’m 100% leaning that it was marketing/advertisement/sales BS.
The saying “or your money back” in the 80s is a overused empty promise. And every snake oil seller used it.
Beeshu is a deadbeat video game accessory manufacture that used more gimmicks than anything else to sell video games. There a reason they went out of business in the SNES/Genesis Era.
I looked around for other opinions on Beeshu. Most people I’ve seen say the make a great “80s style joystick”.
I guess if there was a dividing line between old school joystick and a modern one, it’s Street Fighter 2.
There may have been other factors causing Beeshu’s demise, but the factor I noticed was it was becoming harder to make an ambi stick with the requirement of more buttons. If your only ambi strategy was mirroring buttons, ambi looks like financial suicide in the post SF2-era. Their last Superstick model was the Genesis Gizmo.
Also of note, If the game didn’t have complete remapping options, there were some problems pertaining to index-to-index vs left-lo-left. That was less obvious in 2 button systems, but that was the “hole” I found in Tutankham for ColecoVision and Side Arms for TG-16.
Now we can talk about serious differences in priorities between a pre-SF2 and post-SF2 stick. Most retro (defined here as pertaining to pre-SF2 games) websites, you tube channels, and other web media LOVE the Beeshu.
Most Post-SF2 sites were usually ignorant of Beeshu (I did a global SRK search on the word “Beeshu” before I first post. No where on SRK was the word Beeshu used until my first post using the word “Beeshu” was posted.)
Were different attributes more emphasized? Were pre-SF2 games and fighters THAT different where mechanically they required a different stick?
In the 80s, good joysticks were of the “leaf variety”. Is there something that shifted opinion?
Actually about the money back guarantee, if you know there is an underserved population, (like right stickers, pre-JAMMA gamers) they enter a market no one else would, and most people would take ANY right stick, and know they’d improve quicker by going with instinct vs retraining for left stick, simply because the had the right handed stick.
However a kink in the plan is actually debilitating in an arcade environment.
Since most cabinets were JAMMA, and most SF2 tournaments were off the arcade version, not the SNES or Genesis version, custom righty sticks weren’t allowed or even feasible if a TO wanted to allow them.
So they got a lot of true stories home version victories, but very few arcade victories except the pre-crash crew where enough games were right stick.
Take my KY Enterprises stick. The button contour was backwards, (drilled for left stick) yet the 5 of us blanked the eventual most famous pre-Twitch, post-crash gamer from Ohio in SF2.
Jamal thought it was a “knife fight” using pads, and I spring a “gun” in the mix. When a version a Street Fighter had online vs competition for the Xbox 360, he bought his first fight stick, He figured there’s be other tripletopper-s online.
Can I blank him now? Definitely not. Most online fighters I lose to him 2:1 and the only time I get the 1 is because of my right stick plus my low ping, yet lower-speed-than minimun internet. The margin is more lopsided live.
Plus modern fighters had more slack with the directions. My best chance against him is Genesis New Challengers.
I view it sort of like playing Defender. Part of the skill is negotiating the intentionally complicated layout. Most real arcade Defender record chasers find the modern version that have a more traditional layout (left and right d-pad directions vs thrust and reverse buttons) as wimpy and takes half the skill out.
They had other products, other sticks other than ambidextrous sticks. Their last SNES stick was woefully bad. Let’s make a spaceship into a controller was a bad move. The late Beeshu made bad gimmicky crap no one asked for. Rather silly looking controllers with no practicality. Street Fighter didn’t kill Beeshu, Beeshu killed Beeshu by making weird gimmicks no one wants.
As for your 2nd claim, its a snake oil salesmen hollow statement.
I admit, when the strategy of mirroring buttons on both sides of the stick failed, or became too cost ineffective to succeed, that’s when Beeshu was stuck with the “spaceship pad” reputation.
Notice it was the SNES that had that spaceship version. A system with 6 main buttons. If 12 buttons were cost efficient, they would have made an Ambi Superstick model for the SNES.
The Genesis Gizmo has 2 problems. 1 was the more childish aesthetic. (Their NEC Authorized Turbo Superstick looked cool in a Turbo Grafx sort of way. The Gizmo had the Sega Pico look.) The other was it showed the more buttons on the controller, the more likely a Superstick design would fail financially.
The NES days were their heydays. They had the US National Video Game Team, a bunch of pre-crash record holders, endorsing them.( But then again, a couple of members of the team were later found to be cheaters. )
They had lefts, rights, ambis, balanced two-handed designs, ambi one handed designs.
I admit when more buttons were used, their Superstick design looked “too premium.” And most people picked one side or the other, rarely using it as an ambi, so that was wasted money for left stickers because they had plenty of other choices.
Ambi was a design decision to appeal to the underserved Right Stick population. You didn’t have to guess how many people wanted your right stick design vs left stick design. But when doubling buttons is less of an advantage, you have to do something else.
I noticed SF2 is the cutoff point of where Beeshu is considered good vs bad. Most 80s games sites LOVE the Beeshu. Most 90s sites don’t have that love. And based on the spaceship joystick, if that was your biggest memory of them, I can see why.
What 80s game sites?
Googling ”Beeshu Review", out of the first 5, 4 loved it. They sited microswitch joystick and ambidexterity as their two main reasons why they love it. the one out of five didn’t understand the appeal of the Jazz stick because it was right handed. That one thought right-handed stick was detrimental.
that one out of five has plenty of other choices besides Beeshu. Me and the other four don’t other than get it custom-made. After Beeshu went out of business, we can’t buy off the rack.
