Seth’s rushdown against grapplers is hardly worth it, you’re much better off just laming them out instead of trying to go in on someone who eats like 1/6th of his health when you guess right and who you lose 1/3rd of your health when you guess wrong. Sure, SPD’s and grabs coupled with FADC-able SRK’s do great vs Gief and Hawk, but it’s just a terrible idea to give them a chance to get their games started by getting close to them instead of making them work for it. A good Gief will make you pay for trying to be in his face, not a good idea.
Edit: On topic, I’m mostly cool with characters who you feel that they have to put in work to get shit going instead of just rolling dice until they hit the jackpot, Fei, Chun, Ryu, Ken, Gief (of course I’d be cool with Gief goddamn), Honda, Makoto, El Fuerte (If you think El Fuerte is fraudulent, you’re wrong, he has to guess right like 3 times in a row to get the same damage that you give back to him with a punish), T.Hawk, Sagat, Abel, Rufus, Yun, Yang, Rose, Balrog, Guile, etc…
Cody is fine now, I’m just thinking concerning the way he is designed if they boost him to a top 5 character…like what Cammy, Akuma, Fei, etc are now. That would mean making his frame traps maybe even more advantageous on block, ruffian kicks being less punishable and perhaps projectile invincible, maybe a slight damage increase. I do think you are right bout Yang, he would probably get complained about a lot.
As for Oni, it will never be Marvel…he can only do one move in the air not a long chain combo, so I think it will be fine. Even if they are hugely buffed, Oni won’t be more Marvel than Viper. I do think they need to at least have less recovery, cause they are practically useless right now. On a personal note, I picked up Oni cause I saw the air dashes…and thought “Cool!!!” then I started playing him and realized what garbage they are in their current form.
I wouldn’t want to pigeon-hole the creators of SF and say the only way they can boost a character is by doing so-and-so. In all honesty, I have faith that the creators have contemplated everything we have in this thread into probably greater detail than us. They do know this game in and out and I think they’re always getting closer to making every character shine as they should.
The point wasn’t what Oni can do after an air dash, the point is that he has an air dash. Air dashes are simply something other characters don’t have the tools to deal with should they become more important to his gameplan.
Think about this, how many characters have the ability to jump forward and move backwards when the opponent tries to anti air? Plenty of characters can shorten their jump or extend their jump distance but the only other character that can actually jump forward and move backward is Gouken and only with EX Tatsu and it’s relatively slow to do that.
As for Cody, I think that because he still wouldn’t have a dive kick, a command throw, or mobility people would be a lot more accepting. People don’t bitch much about Fei who actually has a command throw as well as an armor breaking anti projectile move that is safe on block, an actual wakeup options, a 3F cr.LK that is chainable, good frame traps, and good mobility. Overall the only thing Fei DOESN’T have that Cody has is raw damage and a projectile. I think anyone who would complain about a buffed Cody would likely complain about Fei.
it’s all karma really. I named myself a “Chun loyalist” when I first started playing because I didn’t know any better. so I get the good times with 3s and the bad times with SF4. all the tools versus none of the tools. it’s all connected.
on the bright sight she’s still pretty swell in ST and CVS2 so it works out.
And who said people hate grapplers? I prefer much more to have Gief top tier rather than a character like Guile for exemple. Truly with grapplers you have to work your ass off for wins because of several bad matchups.
About Cammy, what do people complain about the most? Yeah divekicks, but also the ridiculous frame advantage on her buttons. I figure if Cody were to become top 5, it would be through this similar method.
Sure Oni can bait an anti air (once the opponent throws the anti air, it is too late and you get hit), but afterwards what? Nothing, that’s what. He dashes backward…and opponent has long recovered, depending on the character can even punish Oni. Even if recovery is reduced, unless the opponent throws out a fierce DP he/she will have recovered long before Oni can do anything. I guess we’ll just have to disagree about air dashes, I don’t see the problem. You can’t chain or attack multiple times in the air, so all it would be useful for is mixing up air to ground attacks. Furthermore it would make Oni even more different than the other shotos. Unique tools are a good thing not a bad thing. All I see are positives as long as whatever done is done so carefully.
If We’re talking canon top-tiers in the sf storyline then Gouken, Akuma, Ingrid and Oro is the strongest in the entire SF universe seeing as how he fights with one arm sealed and can still beat Akuma.
If its just in game, then Oni, Yun, Fei long and Cammy and Akuma.
Akuma (if his focus on offensive pressure was less on vortex and more on oppressive footsies)
Adon
Rose
Juri
Dhalsim
Zangief
Fei Long
Makoto
Balrog
Ryu
You can’t compare Cammy’s buttons and Cody’s. The reason people bitch about Cammy’s buttons is because
A. she has ways to get in easily/safely to USE those buttons (Cody does not.)
and
B. Her buttons are incredibly fast as well as hard hitting and advantageous on block (Cody’s are slow and prone to being stand teched.)
Look at the difference between Cody’s buttons and Cammy’s:
cls LP
Cammy - 3F startup. +4F on block +7F on hit
Cody - 4F startup +3F on block +6F on hit
cls MP
Cammy - 4F startup +1F on block +6F on hit
Cody - 6F startup +4F on block +7F on hit
cls HP
Cammy - 4F startup +2F on block +6F on hit
Cody - 8F startup +1F on block +6F on hit
cls LK
Cammy - 4F startup +1F on block +4F on hit
Cody - 4F startup +1F on block +4F on hit
cr LP
Cammy - 3F startup +3F on block +6F on hit
Cody - 4F startup +2F on block +6F on hit
cr MP
Cammy - 5F startup +3F on block +6F on hit
Cody - 5F startup +1F on block +4F on hit
cr HP
Cammy - 6F startup +2F on block +7F on hit
Cody - 7F startup -1F on block +4F on hit SPECIAL CANCELABLE
cr LK
Cammy - 3F startup -1F on block +2F on hit CHAIN CANCELABLE
Cody - 3F startup -1F on block +2F on hit
cr MK
Cammy - 6F startup -2F on block +1F on hit SPECIAL CANCELABLE
Cody - 7F startup -6F on block -3F on hit
Every single normal Cammy has that she’d use for frame traps is faster than Cody’s and the ONLY normal Cody has that is more advantagous on hit/block is his close MP. Not to mention Cammy’s far MP/HP are special cancelable while Cody’s are not. And she has almost double his walk speed allowing her to keep pressuring for much longer. Even if they increased the frame advantage on Cody’s normals they’d still be slow and he’d still be slow to move forward and slower to move backward to cause moves to whiff. His normals would need to have a serious overhaul for them to reach the point that they’d be good enough to make him equal to cammy once you take into account the mobility factor.
Right now, cammy can link just about any normal into any other normal. Heavy - Heavy. Light - Heavy. Medium - Heavy. Light - Medium. ect ect. Cody has absolutely ZERO ways to link into his close HP without a counterhit or using LP Badstone at stupidly close range for a 30F startup special.
Ultimately the reason people bitch about Cammy’s normals over Cody’s is speed, both in the moves and her mobility. Two things Cody doesn’t have and even if buffed likely wouldn’t be able to compete with Cammy in terms of speed (and frankly shouldn’t be able to. Cammy is designed to be fast. Cody was originally designed to be average ~Ryu level speed and then got slowed down in SF4.)
Honda has a solid archetype, and his style is not close to anyone else (well, I know why you left him out, hehe, just saying)
On the other hand Hakan and Juri might belong in the 1st category. Very weird archetypes
Cammy could be considered retarded by design, relying on an absolutelly godlike move.
Fei and Adon are quite similar, so are Sagat and Guile.
And no pure grappler ?
Stupid archetypes = Characters that are designed to not work properly. Dhalsim and Gief are designed to crush some characters and lose horribly against others.
Abel is a Grappler done right, the Tager way is just dumb (really ArcSys, you have Potemkin… what made you think Tager was a good idea).
Pure Zoners work, because zoning tools can also be used as offensive ones (Guile pressuring with LP Boom)… unless it’s Dhalsim. Pure Grapplers are a horrible archetype.
“Weird” is unique. In a game where every character plays the same, this is a godsend (same to Gen + Makoto). I don’t see how weird equates “retarded”/“stupid” in any way?
Headbutt is a safe-on-block halfscreen character moving special that can’t be low profiled. That’s 1), easy. Same with Scissor Kicks. Specials that move a character have to be very carefully worked with. Dashpunch is good. Headbutt isn’t.
Cammy is retarded in AE12, that has nothing to do with her general archetype of mobile offensive character with relevant footsies.
Of course some characters are still similar, almost every character plays the same in SF4 because no character has actual tools. I’m still not gonna add Viper to get diversity.
