We need this sim.
Give them enough hitstun to combo if you hit chest or lower, and make them +10 on block at the toes(and hit low), and make db strong, db roundhouse combo.
To answer the OP question, I don’t care what specific characters are top tier as long as the lower tiered characters are so lacking in options that they just roll over and die in a large amount of matchups like how things currently are.
Fair enough I still find his character design much more appealing than Guys or Gens for instance, maybe its the inherent flaws he has as a character that I find interesting. Those standards weren’t universal, just my general preference (Don’t like fast rushdown and mixups a la viper, gen cammy and 1/3 the cast…) for who should be top tier.
I like this list (for obvious reasons, haha). What I would like regarding the top tiers is - to be a mix between styles. I think the biggest problem is when a certain type of characters is dominating the game.
And of course, I would like my favourite characters to be top tiers, haha:
Honda
Abel
Vega
Fei Long
Dudley
an a zoner (Dhalsim or Guile)
It’s funny, of all the top tiers that have existed in SF4, by far my favorite to fight was vanilla Sagat even if he was the most overpowered of all the top tiers. I think it is for a similar reason that you mention. I suppose I just dislike the top tier being the top tier because of the Vortex shenanigans. It completely takes away strategy and forces you into a complete guessing game. I understand that a core part of SF is the rock paper scissors aspect, but I like it more when it feels like fighting, not like being caught in a perpetual rock-paper-scissor game.
There are so many differing views on who people are ok with being top tier. It ultimately seems to boil down to the playstyle they’re okay with rather than the character.
If Akuma could stay with his powerful Akuma playstyle but somehow be more honest and less vortex-like, then people would be okay with him staying top tier instead of being frustrated and him feeling “cheap”. Same probably goes for the likes of Cammy and Seth.
You guys hate too much on the dive-kick characters. Dive-kicking is not vortex; it is not something that is hopeless or even rock-paper-scissors to defend against. You just have to learn how it works and then it won’t seem as powerful and unfairly mixup oriented to you as it seems.
Well dive kicks are problematic for most characters who have to use normals for AA.
But on topic it boils down to what you find acceptable losing to. You want to feel as though you’ve been outplayed as opposed to out guessed.
Zoning, spacing, and footsies, are clear indications of skillful play. RPS with a rock scissors OS built in, is more unclear
cammy (no special reason, don’t mind my avatar)
A mixed bag. Not having a dominating style IE footsies, zoner, vortex, etc but having a variety of viable styles.
Akuma, Sagat, Zangief, Dictator/Chun, etc
Gen because of his learning curve.
It doesn´t matter for me, who is top tier, additionaly what I posted earlier here, just imo the rest shouldn´t have shitty tools, normals or options(hard to achieve).
I’ll just quote ESPN…C’mon man! People in general don’t like vortexes, don’t like jack of all trades characters, he’s both. Also longevity is something working against him also, why even in Guilty gear fans were annoyed that Eddie was always top tier.
lol y no one mention Ken? Id be cool with his style being on the top. Solid but also with some scary craziness here and there.
Because people still hate Ken from vanilla SF4 online.
I’m sure everyone here remembers seeing this image at least once:
Oh god Im dying at that character select screen hahaha
Id have to say Id like for more footsie oriented characters to be top tier - if they make the game less knockdown oriented and remove unblockables somehow, I can see people get less salty about Akuma being so good (because he would still be pretty good without his vortex) and less whining about Cammy being braindead (because lets face it, landing a back throw into free unblockable against pretty much everyone, which leads into a very ambiguous 50/50 with an OS to catch teleports isnt exactly what I would consider ‘fair’)
I think most are in agreement about footsie/zoning/spacing characters dominating. I think when looking what characters would be preferable to be top tier we have to look at what that character would need to become top tier. For instance, right now Oni is a very fair character…but for him to ascend from the bottom to top would probably mean cross up demon palm, maybe invincible demon slashes, or maybe some wild mix ups concerning is air dash. So he would then be complained about. So going through the cast and weather they would be acceptable in most peoples eyes if they are at the top…
Abel-No (Marselleis rolls and command grabs and mobility)
Adon-Yes (He doesn’t get much complaint right now)
Akuma-No (Vortex, too many tools, is always tops)
Balrog-Yes (As long as he doesn’t get a command grab)
Blanka-No (Everyone hates him cause of online)
Cammy-No (She is 2nd most hated character currently)
Chun Li-Yes
Cody-No (Strengthening his frame trap game, projectile, and kick slide utilities to make him top would not go well with most)
Viper-No (people hate the ambigious burn kicks)
Dan-No (He’s supposed to be a joke, and this would confuse people too much)
Dee Jay-No (I think cause to make him top, it would be increasing his options on knockdowns and more ambigious mix ups)
Dhalsim-No (Cause it would lead to some incredibly lob sided match ups, plus getting kept out all day long wouldn’t be fun)
E Honda-No (Cause he’s fat. Also people already complain about butt stomps and headbutts)
El Fuerte-No (Running 50/50s)
Evil Ryu-Yes (As long as they keep his teleport shitty like it is now)
Fei Long-Yes (Little complaint now)
Gen-No (He is so hard to play you would see few Gens regardless, also is playstyle is fair)
Gouken-Yes (All his stuff is so straightforward)
Guile-No (Guile has only 2 specials…him being top means he would keep people out with his normals and FK/SB which would annoy)
Guy-No (He runs)
Hakan-No (People complain about his oiled form already)
Ibuki-No (Kunai vortex)
Juri-Yes
Ken-Yes (Unless they flood online too much)
Makoto-No (Command grab, would probably get better defensive options and be even more terrifying up close)
Bison-No (Cause they would have to either make his normals even better, or make scissors or torpedo really overpowered)
Oni-No (Explained above)
Rose-Yes
Rufus-No (He’s fat. Ambigious dive kick spam.)
Ryu-Yes
Sagat-Yes (Unless he has some insane damage like he did in vanilla)
Sakura-No (People complain about her ex tatsu, jHP already)
Seth-No (Too many tools, always tops, vortex)
T Hawk-No (People hate grapplers)
Vega-No (Cause it would mean giving him a vortex probably)
Yang-Yes (As long as they don’t strengthen his dive kicks)
Yun-No (He has a bad reputation)
Zangief-No (People hate grapplers)
So I guess: Adon, Balrog, Chun, E. Ryu, Fei, Gouken, Juri, Ken, Rose, Ryu, Sagat, and Yang
Or they could just give him an anti air which doesnt trade against the shittiest of jump ins and gets stuffed by everything else, and maybe a reliable way to combo into his ultra + a slight damage boost
People only really hate grapplers online where churning 360s during blockstrings becomes much more viable.
Frame trapping or even comboing with bad connections against T.Hawk is straight up suicide, hes got a ‘churn 360 grab/mash mp srk’ 50/50 mixup which you have no way of reliably baiting out since if you neutral jump you can get srkd and if you block you will get grabbed. You can backdash but due to derp online input lag my backdash usually comes out late and i get srkd/grabbed anyways xD
Why would anyone complain about Cody’s Ruffian Kicks? Even if they buff EX to be projectile invincible earlier it’s still NEVER safe (Hitting on last frame = -4F still, everyone can throw him.) and can’t be FADC’d and has 25F recovery on whiff.
I think Cody is FAR more likely to be accepted by people for top tier than Yang who not only already WAS top tier once but is a dive kick character with a command grab and an invincible DP a teleport, and a 3F cr.LK. Especially if buffing Cody’s frame traps, badstone, and Ruffians meant that they didn’t buff his walk speed and wakeup options.
Frankly I don’t want Oni’s air dashes buffed because this isn’t Marvel. SF isn’t meant to be an air dashing based game, characters simply aren’t given the tools to deal with that kind of gameplay if it becomes core to his gameplan.
I think people would be OK with Guy other than his cr.LK. He doesn’t have a command throw / crossup out of Run like Elf and he has to play footsies to even get his Run / Stop stuff even started.
Ryu is way more overplayed than Ken, actually I don’t see that many Kens nowadays.
As Seth I have an easy time against grapplers online, cause their whole gameplan revolve around mashing on defense whether it is SPD/Lariat/DP, it’s like the block button doesn’t exist. Unlike other characters, Seth has a decent rushdown against grapplers.
