Which is better: Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution or Tekken 4?

First of all, I think it’s best to point out that no matter how much more complex t4 is over vf4 or vice versa, both games are played at a level where the “which game is deeper argument” is baseless. 99.9% of gamers won’t play t4 or vf4 at the highest-level possible, the only place where such a comparison matters. Also, the fact of the matter is, both games play very similiar on that level. With that said, I am going to list what I think are “advantages” of Tekken 4 over Virtua Fighter 4.

-more in-depth wall game
Both games have walls, but by giving t4 fighters a universal wall positioning tool, the possibilties for t4 are more complex.

-movement options
T4 overall has more ways to move your characters around the screen. Crouch Dashes, wave dashes, foxsteps, and a much better sidestep (amoung other things) help make the all-important spacing game a little trickier in t4.

-harder execution
Not exactly a plus, but techniques are harder to excute in tekken than they are in vf4. Just frames, combos, movement, all make t4 a little harder to get into on the intermediate level. In fact, to make tekken more acessible to novices, Tekken 5 execution was made easier; as Namco of Japan said, in an attempt to be more Virtua Fighter-like.

-wake up games
Vf4 has these, but Tekken is the only game period to give you literaly dozens of ways to get off the ground. On the flip side, many characters have dozens of attacks to hit those opponents on the ground. In fact, some characters base their whole game on keeping their opponent on the mat.

I don’t play Virtua Fighter 4, so maybe some vf players could clue me in on what Virtua Fighter has to still be just as good. I know it has stuff.

Detailed&explained traing mode makes deep gameplay and hard to learn!!! :lame:

Pick best VF and pick worst Tekken game. LOL You can’t make better topic then this.

Normally I would just ignore something like this and leave it be…but I’m a charitable mood right now. I’ve nothing better to do, so I’ll do you a big favor, and explain why VF4 is so great. I’ll edit this post within a few days with a detailed and technical explination in due time. How’s that for a straight answer?

ppl should just wait and play tekken 5 or at least sit through a good hour of casual matches from decent players to speculate.

tekken 5 is pretty fast now, the forward dashes r really fast and throw damage is way up. even tho its easier to tech throws in tekken the added damage bonus on them should make them more useful.

from researching a bit it seems they really did some good play testing cus i was watching some lei wu long matches and he’s pretty decent now. also hworang is sped up it seems he has some sick juggles now and forward movement options added to him. christy is alot faster as well. they really helped out the low tier characters in that game. murdok has an air throw now and more launchers so he’s good now too hopefully.

namco and sega should do a cross over game… tekken vs virtual fighter… would it work?

There’s also the added “long-range” throws…Hmm.

Man there are more scrubs here than there are on GameFAQs, but the people here try to act like they know what they’re talking about just because this is SRK.

Pretty much everyone in this thread who said VF4 was the deepest fighting game ever have absolutely no idea WHY.

scrubs, everywhere.

I’ll give this a shot.
Is VF deeper than Tekken? Questionable. Is it harder to get into? Much harder. But doesn’t mean it is deeper.

At the core of VF, you have a throwing game. At the core of T4, you have a poking game. But of course both games have more to offer than that.

If anything that would make VF more deeper than T4, is the defensive options. Because defense is the key in VF4. If your defense is bad, you’ll definitely need to work on it.

Alot of people think more technical when they think of VF4. Yeah. It is super technical, and you have to be sick to pull off some moves. You think Just Frames are hard in T4? Well you haven’t seen some of the stuff in VF4. But again…technical skills does not equal deeper.

You do have to put more time into getting well at VF, but that does not mean you can just jump in Tekken and start placing 10 and higher in a tournament.

To the guy who said you can mash in VF? (Andores I think) You haven’t played VF. If you mash, probably one move will come out. VF is the least masher friendly. It’s like mashing in SF. It’s not going to help you any or at all.

At high level play, it’s fast, and fun. Like I said before, the core of VF is a throwing game. Basically one usually sets up a guessing game. Either defend against a mid attack or be thrown. Throws do good damage, and are fast. Sounds a little shallow? But that’s where VF shines. The defensive game. You must employ a high level of defense, and their are many options. But that is just the core. Of course there are much more options.

I got off topic a little, but, basically…if VF4 is deeper than Tekken 4, it is because (mostly) of their bigger defensive game.
If you haven’t gave VF4 a try, go out and get it. It’s super cheap now.

But comparing VF4 to T4 is a little silly. Simple because VF4, maybe the best of the series, is being compared to T4-the worst of the series.

If you wanna talk about VF4:evo being a masher game, then play Akira and try his moves. Tell me you can do them consistantly by mashing.

some moves.

Honestly, I do think VF4E is the most TECHNICAL fighter one, and one of the best fighters ever. However, I do think the technical aspects are a little overemphasized in it.

Tekken is more suited to a mid-level competitive atmosphere cause the high-level stuff is more accessible in that game.

OK this is all I’ve got in me for tonight. Maybe I’ll type more, maybe not. This is a good run-through though.

Well, firstly, all the shit everyone knows and goes without saying (but I’m going to say it anyway).

  • VF has a very strict and precise engine and command system. The “rules” of the game are never broken. The evade window is obvious; either you evade something, or you don’t. The evade system is very clean; made up of linear, half-circular, and full-circular attacks. The command buffer system allows frame-perfect flowcharts and punishment.

  • VF is very balanced. Sega has a great relationship with VF4’s top players, and it shows. Each edition of VF4 has went through several revisions to become what it is. AM2 developers have an extremely comprehensive understanding of risk/reward, and it shows. There are no overly abuseable attacks or tactics in VF, and that is because the risk/reward has great balance. Sega is also aware of virtually everything possible in VF4; meaning that there are no abuseable bugs or tactics that they did not intentionally design. The few that were present in VF4 were eliminated in Evo, and the few additional ones in Evo were eliminated in FT (for example, back turned walking being too evasive and ARE).

Some examples of why VF4 is good:

  • In VF, there are multiple types of counter-hits.

In Evo, there are 2; mC (minor counter), and MC (major counter). MC is a normal counter-hit like any other game; when you interrupt an attacks excecution. This does 150% damage. mC is when you hit an attack during its recovery, by blocking/evading/forcing a whiff or whatever. This does 125% damage, and like an MC situation, some attacks will have different results from a normal hit/mC/MC. Some attacks retain their MC properties for mC, making them geared for punishing moves as well as being a good counter-hit tool.

In FT, MCs have been expanded to 3 types of counter-hits. LC, MC, HC (light, medium, and heavy). If you interrupt a move that does 15 points of damage or below, it’s a LC, and does 130% damage (yellow flash). If you interrupt a move that does between 16 and 24 damage, you get a MC, 150% damage (red flash). And if the move is 25 damage or higher you get a HC, 160% damage (red flash + screen shake). Of course this adds logical risk/reward to attacking out of disadvantage. If you just low P, you’ll only get LCed, but if you throw out a launcher, you’ll eat a HC. Sega used this new system to belance certain moves, too. Some attacks that used to float/crumple on counter, now only do so on MC and HC. Some moves that used to do nothing special now have float/crumple properties only on HC.

  • Forced mixups = forced option-select defense: In VF4, throws are 8 frames, the fastest thing in the game. The fastest P’s in VF are 11 frames, with a very few specific attacks being 10 frames, to give you an idea how the speed throws compare to other attacks in VF. Most quick mids are 14 frames, and launchers are around 16-21+ frames, depending on the character and risk/reward of the move in question. Of course it has to be noted that attacks always beat throws.

Now for the juice. In VF4, it takes 7 frames (6 when crouch dashing) to enter a true crouching state in relation to throws. What this means:

At -1, you are free to crouch under throws.
At -2, you can crouch dash under throws, but you will be thrown if you attempt to just input d+G.
At -3 or more, you cannot avoid a throw by crouching.

Also note that you can backdash out of a throw at -2. At -3 you cannot.

What does this mean? It means that you have 2 options at -3. Either take a risk by attacking, or be defensive in some way. This is one of the biggest things that keeps scrubs from winning in VF. If you cannot perform EDTEG (or other the many other defensive options), you will just be guessing, and taking huge risks in the process. While it is true that choosing a certain defensive option is also guessing, there are enough options that cover various situations that this becomes a non-issure. So if you become good at VF, a lesser player will simply not have a chance, unless your defense is also weak.

Also remember, even though you have to constantly worry about the threat of throws, you also have to worry about the mid/low mixup which is already present in other games. This makes a big difference from defense in Tekken, when you only have to worry about mid/low mixup, and guessing throw break on reaction. Of course you can duck a throw and get a reward for more risk.

Here is a basic breakdown of the defensive options in VF:

Fuzzy guard - Used at -1 or -2, or when you are up to -11 from a move that recovers crouching (since you don’t have to worry about having frames to crouch under throws; you are already crouching). The basic principle of fuzzy guard is that throws are fast at 8 frames, and generally the fastest mids are 14 frames. You can perform a quick crouching motion to go under immediate throws, and stand up in time to guard immediate mids. It can also be used in neutral situations. You can stay crouched, and when you see the opponent move, stand up. The idea behind this, is that 14 frame mids are slow enough to stand up and guard on reaction, but throws are too fast to stand up into on reaction. Fuzzy is extremely important, since it decides who gets advantage first in a neutral situation. So at -1 or -2, fuzzy beats throws, catch throws, and mid/high attacks. Loses to quick lows, and slower low just rely on reaction speed.

(D)TEG (double throw escape-guard) - Option select defensive against attack/ throw, requiring no evade. A single throw can be escaped at any disadvantage without a whiff animation. You can escape 2 throws at -10 or more with no whiff, due to the buffer system. Beats any throws you escape, linear, half-circular, full-circular and delayed attacks. Loses to any throws you don’t escape, catch throws, and generally lows, though that is dependant on the reflexes of the defender.

EDTEG (evade-double throw escape-guard) - The one everyone talks about. Double may also be “single”, “triple”, or even “quadruple”, depending on how many throws are escaped. This option beats linear and half-circular attacks (if you evade in the appropriate direction), and whichever throws you escape. Can be beaten by catch throws, full-circular attacks, delayed attacks, and throws that the opponent doesn’t escape. Catch throw is typically risky; if it whiffs you will be punishable by just about anything, and they are very slow. Full-circular attacks, when blocked, are always punishable, or slow enough to lose to fast attack even when you are at advantage. Delayed attacks are the riskiest, but most rewarding. If your opponent attacks you back, you will eat a MC. Throws of course can be beaten by attacks.

ATE (attack-throw escape) - Used at -8 or more, when you think someone will throw a delayed launcher vs your EDTEG. Very effective with sabakis (attacks that automatcally reverse certain attack types). You can escape many throws with the option without fear of a whiff. Beats throws, catch throws, and delay attack. Loses to any normal attack of decent speed (unless you sabaki it). Also note that sabakis will usually lose to delayed attacks, due to their slow speed. But that’s the tradeoff for being able to beat immideate attacks.

ECDG (evade-crouchdash-guard) - Beats linear/half-circular attacks, delayed attacks and slow full circular attacks. Loses to throw, catch throw, and faster full-circulars.

ECDA (evade-crouchdash-attack) - Beats linear/half-curcular attacks, catch throws/delayed throws. Loses to throw, full-circular, and delayed attacks.

There are more of these, but they are much less important than these I explained.

  • VF has a complex wall system that is not dissimilar to TK4’s. Those that think TK4’s wall system is so much deeper are misinformed.

VF has different hit properties for different attack strengths. The lowest strength will cause a short wall stun without a stagger. During this stun, the opponent cannot guard for a VERY short time. This makes strings like Lau’s PPPK guarunteed if they hit the wall after the third hit. This if true for all fast strings; if they hit the wall from a hit directly preceeding a non-guarunteed hit, it becomes guarunteed. This only applies to strings, as they are the only attack sequences fast enough to take advantage of this vulnerability window. After the window has passed, there is a longer window that lets the opponent guard, but they cannot evade or attack. So it becomes an extremely dangerous situation since they cannot do any evade-based defensive options.

Some attacks will cause a stagger with a wall hit. Depending on the attack, this may require a counter-hit. For example, elbows (14 frame mids) require a MC to cause a wall stagger, but will cause the stun type I explained above on normal hit. Sidekicks (16 frame mids) will cause a wall stagger on normal hit, and on MC, they will push the opponent very far back, allowing wall stagger combos from a longer distance. Also, many attacks retain their mC or MC properties when they hit during a stagger, such as Wolf’s f+K or Aoi’s b,d/f+P+K. This leans to some awesome wall combos.

Not to mention the many throws that either have special wall versions, or allow followups against a wall. This also goes for position change throws when your back is to the wall.

peace

i rather destroy someone at tekken then virtua fighter. t4 >vf4

VF for me. Never could get into Tekken. Maybe if Namco used the extra punch and kick buttons for something innovative it would cool (like breaking a right arm, rendering the right punch button useless) but since it’s not and that type of thing has been done before(Fight Club) I guess it wouldn’t be that innovative .

As far as 3d fighters go, for me it’s VF and DOA.

This is has got to be the dumbest shit I have ever heard! They ask for an opinon then I gave it! I pick Tekken over Virtua Fighter! If you and your little “evo” buddies don’t like then you can kiss my fucking ass! None of your little made up, imaginary points and arguments is going to change my mind. So you and your little pals can go back to playing groupie for some evo champ.

VF4 all the way! VF is the only 3d fighter I enjoy (besides from Power Stone and Project Justice). To me, Tekken is just boring no matter how you put it; I just couldn’t get into it at all.

You asked for a straight answer as to why VF4 is technically better, and he gave it. You ever wonder why VF4:E was (at most points) the #1 money making arcade game in Japan? And Tekken 4 was no where to be seen in the top 10? Yeah, you have given your opinion, but don’t attack people when they play (and know) what VF4 is about.

I go VF4 over T4 but T5 looks like it could top it. Just gotta wait and see.

Cygnus: When I first got VF4:E I tried to mash with Akira because I didn’t know much about it then. I actually tried to mash with a few characters and god damn it wasn’t happening.

Granted, I haven’t been here for long (a few months before my join date, though…), but Andore has to be the biggest idiot I’ve ever seen on these forums. So many moronic statements in oh so many threads. It’s one thing to prefer one game over another, but to bitch and moan when people call you stupid for supporting that preference with blatantly incorrect assertions (and to simply ignore all their logical reasons as to why you’re wrong) is fucking retarded.

Anyone who says Vf 4 or T4 is a mashing game should quit playing now.

I agree with Andore, why should you get all sweaty and hurt your fingers and struggle to bust out one move (it’s a fighting game not DDR) game is okay but way to much effort. Tekken for me plz, VF4evo is so deep it’s a whore.

What’s the point, oh it’s so hard to bust out a move, fighting games are not about busting out moves they are about busting out mind.

waits for a tk4 fanboy to counter.

You asked for a straight answer as to why VF4 is technically better, and he gave it. You ever wonder why VF4:E was (at most points) the #1 money making arcade game in Japan? And Tekken 4 was no where to be seen in the top 10? Yeah, you have given your opinion, but don’t attack people when they play (and know) what VF4 is about.

They didn’t publish top 10, unless you are talking about other unknown ranking. It’s not strange that Tekken 4 was not in 2003 ranking, because it was released on July 2001 and many Tekken players were dissapointed by Tekken 4.

2003 Best Income Award for arcade games in Japan(amusement journal)

1.Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution (Sega-AM2)
2.The King of Fighters 2002 (SNK Playmore)
3.Virtua Striker 2002 (Sega)
4.Mobile Suit Gundam: Federation Vs Zeon DX (Banpresto/Capcom)
5.Power Smash 2 (Sega)

Anyway I couldn’t find VF 3 and VF3TB in the ranking, when Tekken 3 and Tekken Tag were nr 1 in Japanese arcade top 10(Gamest).

Here are famitsu reviews from Tekken and VF on PS2.

Tekken Tag Tournament:(38/40)
Tekken 4:(33/40)+(36/40)
Virtua Fighter 4:(37/40)
Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution:(37/40)

Best famitsu review for both series.

PS Tekken 3 Namco 98.03.26:(39/40)
SS Virtua Fighter 2 Sega 95.12.01:(39/40)